
Vatican City, Nov 4, 2017 / 12:00 am (CNA/EWTN News).-
Last weekend, Pope Francis delivered a keynote speech to a major conference on the future of the European Union. Although the Pope is often characterized as a staunch progressive, his Oct. 28 speech was a reminder that his views on life, marriage, and sexuality go beyond the stereotypes with which he is often characterized.
During the speech, the Pope spoke out against abortion, and said the Christian understanding of the family can serve as a model on which the European continent can base its identity as it faces a changing and uncertain future.
Speaking to participants in the Oct. 27-29 conference “(Re)Thinking Europe: A Christian Contribution to the Future of the European Project,” Pope Francis stressed that the family, “as the primordial community,” is fundamental to understanding Europe’s increasingly multicultural and multiethnic identity.
In the family, “diversity is valued and at the same time brought into unity,” Francis said, explaining that the family “is the harmonious union of the differences between man and woman, which becomes stronger and more authentic to the extent that it is fruitful, capable of opening itself to life and to others.”
Likewise, he said secular communities are also “alive” when they are capable “of openness, embracing the differences and gifts of each person while at the same time generating new life, development, labor, innovation and culture.”
He also pointed to the low birth rate in Europe, lamenting the fact that there are so few children because “all too many were denied the right to be born.”
These comments, which echo the critiques of European secularism often proffered by Benedict XVI, might surprise those who have, since the beginning of his pontificate, painted Francis as being untethered by Catholic doctrine.
Yet while the Pope has often seemed to take a progressive approach to liturgy and has been outspoken on environmental issues, he has also been equally loud when defending Catholic doctrine on moral issues like abortion and homosexuality in the public square.
Of course, there is still significant internal debate surrounding the interpretation of Chapter 8 of his 2015 apostolic exhortation Amoris Laetitia, which addresses the Church’s response to divorced and civilly remarried Catholics.
In fact, this week the debate flared up again when news came out that Father Thomas Weinandy, OFM, Cap., a member of the Vatican’s International Theological Commission, resigned from his position as a consultant to the USCCB’s Committee on Doctrine after publishing a 5-page letter he had written to Pope Francis calling for a correction to the “chronic confusion” of his pontificate, which the priest said “fosters within the faithful a growing unease.”
The letter, which charged that Pope Francis has downplayed the importance of doctrine, created confusion, and appointed questionable bishops, made waves throughout the Catholic world, especially given Fr. Weinandy’s prominent role within the USCCB and the Pope’s theological commission.
But while Francis seems to invite debate on this and other points, he demonstrated last Saturday that he does so while calling for respect for the Catholic worldview in secular culture, especially regarding the family.
Who am I to judge?
It was early in his pontificate, on a return flight from World Youth Day in Rio de Janeiro in 2013, that Pope Francis famously responded to a question about homosexuality in the priesthood with “who am I to judge?”
In some ways, the question became a lens through which his pontificate is often viewed, especially in the media.
Since 2013, the “who-am-I-to-judge Pope” has spoken out frequently on the need to be more welcoming of people with homosexual orientation, and has insisted on the need to use language reflecting welcome, rather than a closed door.
During his September 2015 visit to the United States, images of Pope Francis hugging a gay man circulated on the internet after he met with the man and his partner in Washington D.C. The man was a former student who had written to ask for a meeting, and the Pope accepted.
And while Pope Francis’ approach to homosexuality has been depicted by some as a deviation from the Church’s doctrine, and hailed by others as a step in the right direction, his speech to E.U. leaders is a reminder that he aims to promote a worldview guided by Catholic doctrine, rather than contradicting it.
A Catholic Worldview
Looking back throughout Francis’ pontificate, his speech on Saturday was the latest among dozens of times he has spoken on behalf of the role of the traditional family, the sacredness of human life, or the Church’s teaching on sexuality in the public square.
Some of these occasions, just to name a few, are as follows:
1. In a 2014 audience with members of the German-born, international Schoenstatt movement marking the 100th anniversary of their founding, Pope Francis said the family, in the Christian understanding, was being attacked.
“The family is being hit, the family is being struck and the family is being bastardized,” he said, noting that in the modern context, “you can call everything family, right?”
He said contemporary society has “devalued” the sacrament of marriage by turning it into a social rite and removing the most essential element, which is union with God. “So many families are divided, so many marriages broken,” he said, adding that frequently, there is “such relativism in the concept of the sacrament of marriage.”
2. On the flight back from his trip to Georgia and Azerbaijan a year ago, in October 2016, the Pope was asked about the possibility of biological roots to homosexuality and transgender identities.
Pope Francis said that those who struggle with sexuality and gender identity must be “accompanied as Jesus accompanies them,” and Jesus “surely doesn’t tell them ‘go away because you are homosexual,’” he said.
But Francis also pointed to the “wickedness which today is done in the indoctrination of gender theory” that is now frequently being taught in schools, and which he said “is against the (nature of) things.”
Pastoral accompaniment “is what Jesus would do today,” he said, but asked journalists to “please don’t say: ‘the Pope sanctifies transgenders.’…Because I see the covers of the papers.” Gender theory, he said, is “a moral problem. It’s a human problem and it must be resolved…with the mercy of God, with the truth.”
During the same trip, the Pope gave a lengthy, off-the-cuff speech to priests, seminarians and pastoral workers in which he said “the whole world is at war trying to destroy marriage,” not so much with weapons, “but with ideas…(there are) certain ideologies that destroy marriage. So we need to defend ourselves from ideological colonization.”
3. In his environmental encyclical Laudato Si, published in June 2015, Pope Francis condemned abortion, population control and transgenderism.
Regarding gender, the Pope said that, like creation, “man too has a nature that he must respect and that he cannot manipulate at will. ”
Further, he said that “valuing one’s own body in its femininity or masculinity is necessary if I am going to be able to recognize myself in an encounter with someone who is different. In this way we can joyfully accept the specific gifts of another man or woman, the work of God the Creator, and find mutual enrichment.”
He also said that to protect nature is “incompatible with the justification of abortion,” and that it is “clearly inconsistent” to combat human trafficking or protect endangered species while being indifferent to the choice of many people “to destroy another human being deemed unwanted.”
Francis also lamented that “instead of resolving the problems of the poor and thinking of how the world can be different, some can only propose a reduction in the birth rate.”
“Demographic growth is fully compatible with an integral and shared development,” he said, adding that to blame a growing population for poverty and an unequal distribution of resources rather than the “extreme and selective consumerism on the part of some, is one way of refusing to face the issues.”
4. In February 2015, the Pope praised Slovakia, which had voted against a referendum to legalize same-sex “marriage,” voicing his appreciation “to the entire Slovak Church, encouraging everyone to continue their efforts in defense of the family, the vital cell of society.”
Defying stereotypes
The Pope has made more statements along the same lines over the past few years in general audiences, as well as in homilies, speeches and letters, advocating for public respect for the Church’s position on life, marriage, and family.
When the Pope spelled out his vision for the Christian contribution to the continent of Europe on Saturday, he made it clear that his moral and political vision is one based on the Church’s longstanding teaching on the family.
Pope Francis can be hard to pin down at times, and the resulting “gray area” often leads to stereotype – which is why he is so frequently the subject of caricature, rather than serious study. But caricatures of Francis inevitably miss the mark.
On Saturday, Pope Francis proved this by again reminding Europe of its roots, and of the importance of the family and of Christianity to those roots, showing himself to be a leader who, instead of falling into stereotypes, defies them.
[…]
The Church in distress. Come Holy Spirit…
Amen Deacon.
Maybe I missed it but I haven’t seen Pope Francis or any of the priests who are proponents of the LBGT community admit that it is a grave sin to commit sodomy, and repentance and reconciliation is required.
— July 30, 2013. During his first press conference, Pope Francis says “Who am I to judge?” when asked about a purportedly gay priest. “On that occasion I said this: If a person is gay and seeks out the Lord and is willing, who am I to judge that person?” the pope later explained. “I was paraphrasing by heart the Catechism of the Catholic Church where it says that these people should be treated with delicacy and not be marginalized.”
“I am glad that we are talking about ‘homosexual people’ because before all else comes the individual person, in his wholeness and dignity,” he continued. “And people should not be defined only by their sexual tendencies: let us not forget that God loves all his creatures and we are destined to receive his infinite love.”
“I prefer that homosexuals come to confession, that they stay close to the Lord, and that we pray all together,” said Pope Francis. “You can advise them to pray, show goodwill, show them the way, and accompany them along it.”
— Jan. 24, 2023: Pope Francis declares in an Associated Press interview that “Being homosexual is not a crime.” “It’s not a crime. Yes, but it’s a sin. Fine, but first let’s distinguish between a sin and a crime,” said Pope Francis.
— Jan. 28, 2023: Pope Francis clarifies his comments to AP which implied that while homosexual activity was not a crime it is a sin in the eyes of the church. “When I said it is a sin, I was simply referring to Catholic moral teaching, which says that every sexual act outside of marriage is a sin.”
“In the end, the best way to help those who oppose” LGBTQ, Martin wrote, “is to meet them, listen to them, and come to know them as beloved children of God, that is, our brothers and sisters in Christ.”
Sorry James, but people who oppose the vile LGBTLMNOP agenda don’t need help, from you or from your sycophants. You need to repent or be laicized.
I have a question.
Is there a process by which the Catholic Church, assailed and assaulted, pilloried and subverted — by its own leader and his diabolical henchmen — throws in the towel and declares itself null and void?
It’s hard to see how the Church can survive much more of this abuse.
It won’t declare itself to be null and void, it will describe itself as being “welcoming” and “inclusive.” The end result will be the same, however. A lifeless church filled with unbelievers.
Christ said that He would be with His Church until the end of time, and we have to rely on that no matter what traitors try to do to it. It is mind-boggling that in spite of everything, it is still vigorous in administering valid Sacraments (including confession) and preaching Jesus.
To be sure Synodaling is a gay affair. So why are these guys talking about fertility and germination? Maybe they meant the futility of the Faith in the German nation?
I had an email from Bishop Barron saying that this LGBTQ+ issue as well as two others are off the table now.
Quick! Alert the synod and a waiting world! All genuflect!
Radcliff and Martin have written a memo or two! A couple! Barely a millennium after St. Peter Damien wrote the entire “Book of Gomorrah.”
Was I poorly educated? Where in this article are “prelates” named? That term, I thought, was usually reserved for bishops. Or was that headline nothing more than click bait?
I’m really kind of sick of all this.
Is there anyone out there who would want either of these priests as a confessor?
So these two priests are prominent? Only in the minds of the woke.
“The 79-year-old Dominican wrote that same-sex desires, like all desires, are God-given”. According to Fr Radcliffe’s logic the desire for adult men to sexually penetrate other men, must also include as God-given the desire to sexualize and rape young boys, and girls.
Like most considering homosexuality as a good, Fr Radcliffe follows his sentiments, meaning well although more likely given to, realistically speaking, moral derangement. It doesn’t require genius to agree that the natural desires are given us by God. However, the unnatural desires by Man. Native desires are what Aquinas called appetites. Man is a moral as well as a rational being, and inclines by the will his natural desires for good or for evil. It defies reasoned knowledge of the infinite good that is God that he would place desires in his children that contradict their biology, their physical body. That men should by nature seek to sexually penetrate other men, or more egregiously boys, and little girls.
No, Fr Radcliffe OP, similar to Diocesan Fr Maurizio Chiodi recently assigned to the Synod select committee, Synod Relator General Cardinal Hollerich SJ, Fr James Martin SJ all suffer from moral derangement, an equal opportunity disease.
…and they likely suffer from Same Sex Attraction, themselves, which actually Archbishop Vigano accused Francis of in the not distant past. Heard against the backdrop of so many of the mindboggling appointments that Francis has made, including roles that he has given to these two perverts, it simply cannot be seen as a wild accusation. Morally broken men are at the helm of the Barque of Peter.
Agreed.
Dear Father. Your graphic elocution describes our current dilemma of today’s Sodom and Gomorrah well. The worn dilemma as to whether they are born GAY or choose that lifestyle remains. I have had difficulty with the choice issue. One can only wonder why they would exit the closet to openly admit their Gayness when they are rejected by society with disdain?
I am a military veteran. I remember when Gays were discharged as “undesirables”. In the 60s I processed those discharges at the Pentagon. Enter “Don’t ask, don’t tell.”
Time: President Bill Clinton attempted to unilaterally repeal the ban after taking office in 1993. The effort foundered. Congress instead passed a law under which gays could serve as long as they kept quiet about their orientation. But while the Pentagon agreed to stop asking about sexual orientation during the recruiting process, it continued to investigate those serving in the military. Since 1994 more than 12,000 service members have been discharged because of their sexual orientation.
It is estimated that the US Gay population is 5.5%. That excludes Gays still in the closet. I have always thought what would I do to if my child was Gay? My sister-in-law, a staunch Catholic, disowned her son when he came out. Sadly, he was the closest of her four children to her. He never returned.
UCLA Williams Institute of law: LGBT identification varies by age. Nearly one in six young adults 18 to 24 identifies as LGBT.
Is continued isolation an “answer” to solving the Gay issue? Does the damning rhetoric here provide progress? I don’t see that. I still consider the LGBTQ community our separated brethren. I hope others will. We need to lower the attack rhetoric.
“I still consider the LGBTQ community our separated brethren. I hope others will. We need to lower the attack rhetoric.”
Those who are committed to living in blatant, willful disobedience to God- whether due to biology or choice – are not “our separated brethren.” They are under divine judgment. The wise response is to keep our distance so as not to be consumed when the fire falls.
Homosexualism is crime. It has to be treated as crime. Just like abortion. Just like trans; drugs. Law handles it on a scale. Sidelining law on it is crime.
Sharing the truth is not “damning rhetoric”. Fact of life like all crime and/or all good helps. The “open acceptance out of the closet” worsens the problems.
President Biden positions a moral high-ground against “fact of life” -yesterday.
https://www.msn.com/en-xl/news/other/who-the-hell-do-these-people-think-they-are-biden-calls-out-trump-and-vance-for-their-responses-to-school-shootings/vi-AA1rhsKh?ocid=BingNewsSerp
A well articulated overview morganD. There are instances when homosexual tendencies, SSA begins at a very early age, and there are no biological indicators why, such as lack of hormones. There are indications that most others willfully acquire the behavior at a later stage. That the behavior has shown a marked, growing increase in past decades circa the sexual revolution and the wide use of mind altering drugs. An amoral mentality of freedom that believes anything goes.
Yes. You’re correct that insulting accusations are neither helpful to the person nor is it morally correct. I call it a moral derangement especially in regards to the prelates Cdl Hollerich, Cdl McElroy, priests given ranking appointments Fr James Martin Vat communications, Fr Radcliffe within the Synod who promote normalizing homosexuality, at least among consensual adults [it is a disorder or derangement of order]. That’s because it’s a disorder primarily of the will. Considering causality, whether it’s psychological, or perhaps due to physical impairment the Church is obliged to condemn the same sex act as immoral because it abrogates the natural law, although the attraction itself is not, likely because the person may not be entirely culpable, whereas in instances when it’s freely adopted it’s sinful.
If we study the phenomenon historically we find periods among cultures when the increase in the behavior burgeons. As it did among the Romans who initially disdained and condemned it as effeminate. The Apostle Paul addresses the sudden increase in practice among the Romans due to their disfavor with God regarding his existence evident in nature. As you suggest charity should be the rule, though there are scenarios in which perpetrators merit measured retribution.
Mortal sin can separate us all Mr. Morgan.
morganD: spare us the homosexual playbook lines. You’re castigating those who disapprove of unnatural acts because we just won’t submit to it the common zeitgeist.
Morgan D.,
Yes, “we need to lower the attack rhetoric.”
Unfortunately, the rhetoric is in reaction to the more radicalized homosexual faction and its aggression to redefine “marriage,” and then the capitulation of get-along-go-along corporate America and even the inventive rhetoric of the U.S. Supreme Court. Over a century ago Supreme Court Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr. already signaled our modernday undermining of human civilization, in only a few decades:
“. . . I often doubt whether it would not be a gain if every word of moral significance could be banished from the law altogether. . . .” (Harvard Law Review, 1895). Earlier, he also had written: “I think that the sacredness of human life is a PURELY MUNICIPAL IDEA of no validity outside the jurisdiction” (cited in Mark de Wolfe, ed., The Pollock-Holmes Letters, 1874-1932, 1942, Vol. 2, p. 36, CAPS added).
Nearly one in six young adults 18 to 24 identifies as LGBT.
Grooming works. If this was some innate occurrence; it wouldn’t be increasing.
Grooming and gaining social credits both.
Back in the day everyone wanted to identify as an American Indian.
Yes indeed, a friend (with four children, the last of which is a recent public school escapee, er I mean graduate) spoke about how “identifying” as part of the alphabet groups results in special treatment; especially attractive at a time when one starts to crave external affirmation.
Thanks for adding my oversight.
If Martin were to publicly reveal a homosexual inclination would anybody be shocked?
Interesting how he’s used his Wharton MBA to make his disordered advocacy into cottage industry.
To “Rev.” Radcliffe, “Rev.” Martin and their ring-leader Pontiff Francis:
I have a dear friend in Christ who took your bad counsel as a young man, and lived the G and B lifestyle of your LGBTQ ideology. He left it and stopped listening to false men like you, and he told me the truth that this “gift” you are promoting is “Satanic,” and the people he encountered were openly and literally Satan worshippers. He suffers grievously with STDs and AIDS (thanks to your counsel), and knows he is dying, middle-aged, from the ravages of this lifestyle you encourage on the young.
He says this about your LGBTQ ideology: “It is insanity for adults to teach children and young people that it is OK for a man to inseminate another person’s intestines.”
Listen to him, and perhaps in turn, repent of your ideology if sexual sinfulness and the spirit of fornication and sodomy and death, and consider following Jesus instead.
I’m so very sorry, Chris. Truly, a voice in the wilderness.
Every now and then it is necessary simply to state that Everyone is welcome in Christ’s House – LGBTQ++ & whatever, but – it’s HIS house and HE makes the rules.”
Exactly. And those who choose not to live under His authority will be cast out of His presence, for all eternity. People should take sin seriously. God certainly does.
Yes. Define prominent.
If, by prominent, you mean showing up everywhere, Fr. Martin is certainly prominent today. Fr. Radcliffe may have been prominent at one time.
If one believes that God positively wills sinful desires, then one believes either that God wishes us ill, or that those desires aren’t actually sinful. Either way, one has departed from Catholic faith and teaching. One has become an Episcopalian or some other phony type which instrumentalizes Christ in the service of narcissism. If these priests believe some other sect has the truth, why do they not join join that sect and evangelize for it? It is due to their pride and their lusts.
There has been far too much dancing with the devil in the pale moonlight regarding these pathetic losers. No one who clings to, works to justify and promulgates grievous and disgusting sins of the flesh is, at the same time, in Christ. That is the root lie which all of these poor souls and, indeed, bergoglio himself have embraced. In their obstinacy, let them dance. Just don’t make the deadly mistake of cutting in.
Lukewarmness has no rights, but it often can illuminate that which is True, in this case, shedding light on the counterfeit church that has been attempting to subsist in The True Church Of Christ, which exists “Through, With, And In Christ, In The Unity Of The Holy Ghost (Filioque).
“I know your deeds…because you are lukewarm, I am about to spit you out of My mouth.” – Jesus The Christ.
Jesus promises that “those who overcome lukewarmness” and return to The Catholic Faith, will be Saved.
We can know through Faith and reason, that “spiritual ambivalence “, is not of The Holy Ghost.
“Penance, Penance, Penance.”
https://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2021/02/penance-penance-penance-she-came-to.html
Under the radar was (and is) the U.S. retail ban on the movie “Kubi” by Takeshi Kitano (2023). The very violent but historical accurate movie of the rise of power of the samurai warlord Toyotomi Hideyoshi in the 1500’s offends the LGBTQ community because of the real practice of the samurai involving homosexual acts to demonstrate fidelity and allegiance. Very much a learned, social norm, not of love, nor attraction but as a symbol of power of one man over another – like contemporary American prisons. If the Pope cannot see this is the return of paganism then we need to continue to pray for him and for the Holy Spirit to protect our church.
Pardon me while I nonchalantly vomit. Fr Martin is a disgrace.
I suspect that Our Lord will soon visit upon the Church and the world the well-deserved Sodom and Gomorrah treatment.
Enough about these lifestyle choices! The most important thing is to get to heaven. The English comedian Kenny Everett was a successful comic in the early 80s and was a baptised Catholic, but accepted the lifestyle choice forested by Radcliffe and Martin. He died, but not before his devoted sister pressed him to reconcile with the Church which he readily did and a Catholic priest spent a day helping him to go through his life. The priest said it was one of the most beautiful experiences of his life. THAT IT WHAT SHOULD BE SPOKEN ABOUT: THE Four LAST THINGS!! NOT CLIMATE, NOT ADAM AND STEVE BUT GETTING TO HEAVEN!!! HEAR THAT MARTIN, RADCLIFFE AND POPE FRANCIS??
Father Peter hit the nail on the head — “moral derangement.” I would add an accompanying pathology presently boldly on display at the Holy See — “theological derangement.”
Time to put the dogs back on the leash.
We are witnessing the deliberate deconstruction of Roman Catholicism from within by sociopaths who will lie to your face with a stole around their shoulders. Exhibit A: James Martin insisting that he is in conformity to the teaching of the Church. No, he is not, he is a liar, as are each of his enabling superiors and confreres in this subterfuge.
When are we going to start to say the truth to the faces of those who would deceive us? We are all sporting ecclesiastical Stockholm Syndrome.
The ‘online Synod ‘ here at CWR – good in its own way ..we are blessed in our times to be able to take in good surprises of our times including the approval of Medjugorje …the deeper awareness of the Divine Will revelations too , given through learned theologians such as below to add to aid in all these problems of our times which are interconnected , as often reminded by our Holy Father of the oneness in our wounds –
to trust that God is in the process of renewal of the earth -https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SP5TK5HhclQ&t=792s
Have listened to only a few of the talks; was good to hear in one such talk the words of Blessed Mother telling us to bring sorrows to her to respond – ‘ Love You Jesus and Mary in all our sorrows ‘- those words are like echoes of that of the Holy Father , that our oneness is in our wounds …we could trust that such occasions , persons involved in such , even generations can be brought to The Lord to say with each and all to transform pain of memories.. experiences ..of having had to leave little ones ..their pain ..pain and fear of rejection of all that likely underlie lot of the wounds around ..
The decision of the Holy Father to have a controversial figure – Fr.Chirodi as a consultant also can be seen in such a light of good intention , to help persons who feel rejected by The Church to have more trust that they too are being listened to …to help bring them to deeper ways of living in the Divine Will and its holiness as emphatically invoked by another good priest – Fr Celso – to seal holiness through intercession of Luisa and ministry of holy angels – all can join in such prayers for the Synodal occasion, all such occasions , elections..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LT21uo8IzJ4
“The decision of the Holy Father to have a controversial figure – Fr.Chirodi as a consultant also can be seen in such a light of good intention, to help persons who feel rejected by The Church to have more trust that they too are being listened to.”
The road to hell is paved with good intentions, and some leaders seem intent on leading lost people there. Do not make excuses for moral evil.
Please have the heart and mind of the Beloved and see with His eyes, thoughts and ways, Chiodi and his assignment is not to accomplish the Beloved’s Will but the ancient serpents…it it a work of darkness not the Beloved Light… may He bring His Good from every good and darkness
Brokeback Martin is a SJW pretending to be a priest. Any other Pope would have laicized him a long time ago and banished him to a remote monastery to pray for forgiveness.
Monasteries are not penal colonies. Best Mr. Martin go out into the world and earn his living with the insecurity and worry most of us shoulder and navigate by night some of the poisonous waters he encourages others to do. Maybe he would wake up and then come to a discernment in conformity to Christ.
Martin is the most tragic of figures. He requires our prayer, as do others who distort the the Gospel for their own consolation.
I’m getting the word … nonce!
Here we go again with the false linguistics about immoral homosexual. It is not a disorder but a preferred act like all sin. These two priest are using false language to justify homosexuality. This immoral sexuality like all immoral sexual acts art not “God-given” but are evil as is the words by Radcliffe and Martin.
Christ said that He would be with His Church until the end of time, and we have to rely on that no matter what traitors try to do to it. It is mind-boggling that in spite of everything, it is still vigorous in administering valid Sacraments (including confession) and preaching Jesus.
This bears repeating.
The explosion of vocations to the Dominicans in Ireland is phenomenal! Because they believe in the charism of their founder and they are orthodox and that is attracting so many young men and women who are tired of the fluidity that now stands for Catholic thought and belief. Radcliffe is a thankfully dying remnant to the hippy generation that offered nothing, to his vision that is poison to the vision of Dominic and Francis!