Vatican City, Feb 3, 2018 / 01:25 pm (CNA/EWTN News).- Several sources familiar with a proposed deal between the Chinese government and the Holy See have said the landmark agreement is not only a possibility, but an “imminent” certainty that could come to fruition as early as this spring.
While no specific timeline has been given for the agreement, “I’ve heard that it is imminent. And in China, in many areas and environments, it is already taken as a done deal,” Henry Cappello told CNA Feb. 2.
President of the “Caritas in Veritate International” organization, Cappello travels to China on a regular basis to offer training to the country’s bishops, and has strong ties with both those approved by the Holy See and those backed by the communist government’s Chinese Patriotic Catholic Association.
Cappello was in China two weeks ago, where Joseph Ma Yinglin, the government-backed bishop of Kunming, explained the proposed deal to him.
Without the Vatican’s consent, Ma was tapped by the patriotic association to head the diocese in 2006. After his episcopal ordination, Ma’s excommunication was declared by the Vatican, because he was ordained a bishop without approval from Rome. In 2010 he was appointed president of the Chinese patriotic association’s bishops’ conference.
As part of the agreement, which has been widely reported in recent days, the Vatican is expected to officially recognize seven bishops who are out of communion with Rome, including 2-3 bishops, one of which is Ma, whose excommunications have been explicitly declared by the Vatican.
Cappello said the proposal has already been discussed in China, and he believes “this is the direction that things are going.”
In 1951 Beijing broke official diplomatic ties with the Vatican. Since the 1980s they have loosely cooperated in episcopal appointments, however, the government has also named bishops without Vatican approval.
The result has led to a complicated and tense relationship between the patriotic association and the “underground Church,” which includes priests and bishops who are not recognized by the government.
Many Catholics parishioners and priests who have rejected government control have been imprisoned, harassed and otherwise persecuted.
Currently every bishop recognized by Beijing must be a member of the patriotic association, and many bishops appointed by the Vatican who are not recognized or approved by the Chinese government have faced government persecution.
Many of the Vatican-approved bishops in China are drawing near to the age of 75, when they are required to submit their request for retirement, and many others have died, yet few successors have been named, raising questions as to whether or not a deal might be drawing near.
Regarding the seven bishops who will be recognized should a new agreement come to pass, Msgr. Anthony Figueiredo, who has worked with the seven bishops in question through the Caritas in Veritate for the past several years and was in China in July 2017, confirmed the news on the bishops’ proposed approval, saying “if the Vatican is going to accept them and an accord be reached, it’s going to be for all of them. ”
In addition to recognizing the seven bishops, the new deal would reportedly outline government and Vatican roles in future episcopal selection, with the Vatican proposing names and the Chinese government reportedly having the final say over Vatican-vetted candidates.
Figueiredo, who lives in Rome, travels to China several times a year with Caritas in Veritate, said he has worked closely with the seven bishops in question, and “they have desired this communion for years.”
He personally delivered a letter from the bishops to the Pope in 2016, which he says told the Pope they wanted communion with Rome.
“They didn’t propose the deal, certainly not in the letter they gave me, because that’s what’s come afterwards,” he said, noting that the Vatican has on several occasions sent a delegation to Beijing to discuss the details of a possible agreement.
Figueiredo said the deal could come within the next few months, saying “I think it could well come this spring, absolutely.”
For his part, Cappello said he could neither confirm nor deny any specific details of the agreement, but that as of two weeks ago during his visit to China, “we are talking in the right direction” in terms of what’s already been reported.
He said that in his view, to say China would have the final say in bishop appointments oversimplifies the matter, because the Church in China is complicated and nuanced due to its relations with a communist state.
“The Chinese bishops in China would have a big say, but knowing that the Church in China is in a communist nation, then the Church and the State, the line between them is very narrow,” he said.
“There’s really no black and white, there’s overlap there, so of course there would be an input from the government…it will be a collaboration,” Cappello said.
And as someone that has traveled back and forth to various provinces in China for the past 25 years, he said he has seen progress he calls remarkable, in terms of relations in the past decade, and during the past five years in particular.
With this deal, Pope Francis “is building bridges,” he said, adding that he believes the stronger and more vocal opponents of the accord “are on the wrong side of history.”
One of the most outspoken critics of a deal with the Chinese government has been Cardinal Joseph Zen, Archbishop Emeritus of Hong Kong.
Zen was ordained a priest in 1961 and became a bishop in 1996. He has spent a long missionary career in China, and has long been a vocal protester against human-rights abuses in China.
His concerns have grown so great that he recently traveled to Rome to meet with Pope Francis about the proposed deal, after the Vatican asked Bishop Peter Zhuang Jianjian of Shantou in southern Guangdong province and Bishop Joseph Guo Xijin from the Mindong Diocese of China’s eastern Fujian province to retire so that bishops from the patriotic association could take their place.
In a letter posted to his blog Jan. 29, Cardinal Zen said that while his meeting with the Pope last week was consoling, he believes “the Vatican is selling out the Catholic Church in China…if they go in the direction which is obvious from all what they are doing in recent years and months.”
He implied that Francis was unfamiliar with the situation, and questioned whether there could be any mutual ground with “a totalitarian regime,” comparing this to a hypothetical agreement between St. Joseph and King Herod. He said that if the agreement that comes out is a poor one, “I would be more than happy to be the obstacle.”
The Vatican immediately responded, and in a Jan. 30 statement said Francis is well-informed of the dialogue with China, so “it is therefore surprising and regrettable that the contrary is affirmed by people in the Church, thus fostering confusion and controversy.”
In a Jan. 31 interview with Italian paper La Stampa , Vatican Secretary of State Cardinal Pietro Parolin spoke of the proposed deal, and, though he didn’t mention Zen’s comments specifically, said “no one should cling to the spirit of opposition to condemn his brother or use the past as an excuse to stir up new resentments and closures.”
On the deal, he said that “if someone is asked to make a sacrifice, small or great, it must be clear to everyone that this is not the price of a political exchange, but falls within the evangelical perspective of a greater good, the good of the Church of Christ”
Figueriedo told CNA he believes the Vatican was quick to counter Zen in order to protect the deal, because “it really takes just one person on the Chinese side to say ‘you shouldn’t go ahead,’” which he says has happened in the past.
Should a deal come to fruition, Cappello said he hoped it would help normalize life for Catholic faithful and allow priests, bishops and seminarians to receive much needed formation.
China is extremely complex, he said, explaining that the Vatican has reached a point of understanding the nation which is both “encouraging and remarkable.”
However, he said there are real reasons for concern based on past events, and that any agreement is something that those on both sides will need to grow into.
CNA reached out to the Vatican for confirmation, however, they declined to comment on the situation.
[…]
The Church in distress. Come Holy Spirit…
Amen Deacon.
Maybe I missed it but I haven’t seen Pope Francis or any of the priests who are proponents of the LBGT community admit that it is a grave sin to commit sodomy, and repentance and reconciliation is required.
— July 30, 2013. During his first press conference, Pope Francis says “Who am I to judge?” when asked about a purportedly gay priest. “On that occasion I said this: If a person is gay and seeks out the Lord and is willing, who am I to judge that person?” the pope later explained. “I was paraphrasing by heart the Catechism of the Catholic Church where it says that these people should be treated with delicacy and not be marginalized.”
“I am glad that we are talking about ‘homosexual people’ because before all else comes the individual person, in his wholeness and dignity,” he continued. “And people should not be defined only by their sexual tendencies: let us not forget that God loves all his creatures and we are destined to receive his infinite love.”
“I prefer that homosexuals come to confession, that they stay close to the Lord, and that we pray all together,” said Pope Francis. “You can advise them to pray, show goodwill, show them the way, and accompany them along it.”
— Jan. 24, 2023: Pope Francis declares in an Associated Press interview that “Being homosexual is not a crime.” “It’s not a crime. Yes, but it’s a sin. Fine, but first let’s distinguish between a sin and a crime,” said Pope Francis.
— Jan. 28, 2023: Pope Francis clarifies his comments to AP which implied that while homosexual activity was not a crime it is a sin in the eyes of the church. “When I said it is a sin, I was simply referring to Catholic moral teaching, which says that every sexual act outside of marriage is a sin.”
“In the end, the best way to help those who oppose” LGBTQ, Martin wrote, “is to meet them, listen to them, and come to know them as beloved children of God, that is, our brothers and sisters in Christ.”
Sorry James, but people who oppose the vile LGBTLMNOP agenda don’t need help, from you or from your sycophants. You need to repent or be laicized.
I have a question.
Is there a process by which the Catholic Church, assailed and assaulted, pilloried and subverted — by its own leader and his diabolical henchmen — throws in the towel and declares itself null and void?
It’s hard to see how the Church can survive much more of this abuse.
It won’t declare itself to be null and void, it will describe itself as being “welcoming” and “inclusive.” The end result will be the same, however. A lifeless church filled with unbelievers.
Christ said that He would be with His Church until the end of time, and we have to rely on that no matter what traitors try to do to it. It is mind-boggling that in spite of everything, it is still vigorous in administering valid Sacraments (including confession) and preaching Jesus.
To be sure Synodaling is a gay affair. So why are these guys talking about fertility and germination? Maybe they meant the futility of the Faith in the German nation?
I had an email from Bishop Barron saying that this LGBTQ+ issue as well as two others are off the table now.
Quick! Alert the synod and a waiting world! All genuflect!
Radcliff and Martin have written a memo or two! A couple! Barely a millennium after St. Peter Damien wrote the entire “Book of Gomorrah.”
Was I poorly educated? Where in this article are “prelates” named? That term, I thought, was usually reserved for bishops. Or was that headline nothing more than click bait?
I’m really kind of sick of all this.
Is there anyone out there who would want either of these priests as a confessor?
So these two priests are prominent? Only in the minds of the woke.
“The 79-year-old Dominican wrote that same-sex desires, like all desires, are God-given”. According to Fr Radcliffe’s logic the desire for adult men to sexually penetrate other men, must also include as God-given the desire to sexualize and rape young boys, and girls.
Like most considering homosexuality as a good, Fr Radcliffe follows his sentiments, meaning well although more likely given to, realistically speaking, moral derangement. It doesn’t require genius to agree that the natural desires are given us by God. However, the unnatural desires by Man. Native desires are what Aquinas called appetites. Man is a moral as well as a rational being, and inclines by the will his natural desires for good or for evil. It defies reasoned knowledge of the infinite good that is God that he would place desires in his children that contradict their biology, their physical body. That men should by nature seek to sexually penetrate other men, or more egregiously boys, and little girls.
No, Fr Radcliffe OP, similar to Diocesan Fr Maurizio Chiodi recently assigned to the Synod select committee, Synod Relator General Cardinal Hollerich SJ, Fr James Martin SJ all suffer from moral derangement, an equal opportunity disease.
…and they likely suffer from Same Sex Attraction, themselves, which actually Archbishop Vigano accused Francis of in the not distant past. Heard against the backdrop of so many of the mindboggling appointments that Francis has made, including roles that he has given to these two perverts, it simply cannot be seen as a wild accusation. Morally broken men are at the helm of the Barque of Peter.
Agreed.
Dear Father. Your graphic elocution describes our current dilemma of today’s Sodom and Gomorrah well. The worn dilemma as to whether they are born GAY or choose that lifestyle remains. I have had difficulty with the choice issue. One can only wonder why they would exit the closet to openly admit their Gayness when they are rejected by society with disdain?
I am a military veteran. I remember when Gays were discharged as “undesirables”. In the 60s I processed those discharges at the Pentagon. Enter “Don’t ask, don’t tell.”
Time: President Bill Clinton attempted to unilaterally repeal the ban after taking office in 1993. The effort foundered. Congress instead passed a law under which gays could serve as long as they kept quiet about their orientation. But while the Pentagon agreed to stop asking about sexual orientation during the recruiting process, it continued to investigate those serving in the military. Since 1994 more than 12,000 service members have been discharged because of their sexual orientation.
It is estimated that the US Gay population is 5.5%. That excludes Gays still in the closet. I have always thought what would I do to if my child was Gay? My sister-in-law, a staunch Catholic, disowned her son when he came out. Sadly, he was the closest of her four children to her. He never returned.
UCLA Williams Institute of law: LGBT identification varies by age. Nearly one in six young adults 18 to 24 identifies as LGBT.
Is continued isolation an “answer” to solving the Gay issue? Does the damning rhetoric here provide progress? I don’t see that. I still consider the LGBTQ community our separated brethren. I hope others will. We need to lower the attack rhetoric.
“I still consider the LGBTQ community our separated brethren. I hope others will. We need to lower the attack rhetoric.”
Those who are committed to living in blatant, willful disobedience to God- whether due to biology or choice – are not “our separated brethren.” They are under divine judgment. The wise response is to keep our distance so as not to be consumed when the fire falls.
Homosexualism is crime. It has to be treated as crime. Just like abortion. Just like trans; drugs. Law handles it on a scale. Sidelining law on it is crime.
Sharing the truth is not “damning rhetoric”. Fact of life like all crime and/or all good helps. The “open acceptance out of the closet” worsens the problems.
President Biden positions a moral high-ground against “fact of life” -yesterday.
https://www.msn.com/en-xl/news/other/who-the-hell-do-these-people-think-they-are-biden-calls-out-trump-and-vance-for-their-responses-to-school-shootings/vi-AA1rhsKh?ocid=BingNewsSerp
A well articulated overview morganD. There are instances when homosexual tendencies, SSA begins at a very early age, and there are no biological indicators why, such as lack of hormones. There are indications that most others willfully acquire the behavior at a later stage. That the behavior has shown a marked, growing increase in past decades circa the sexual revolution and the wide use of mind altering drugs. An amoral mentality of freedom that believes anything goes.
Yes. You’re correct that insulting accusations are neither helpful to the person nor is it morally correct. I call it a moral derangement especially in regards to the prelates Cdl Hollerich, Cdl McElroy, priests given ranking appointments Fr James Martin Vat communications, Fr Radcliffe within the Synod who promote normalizing homosexuality, at least among consensual adults [it is a disorder or derangement of order]. That’s because it’s a disorder primarily of the will. Considering causality, whether it’s psychological, or perhaps due to physical impairment the Church is obliged to condemn the same sex act as immoral because it abrogates the natural law, although the attraction itself is not, likely because the person may not be entirely culpable, whereas in instances when it’s freely adopted it’s sinful.
If we study the phenomenon historically we find periods among cultures when the increase in the behavior burgeons. As it did among the Romans who initially disdained and condemned it as effeminate. The Apostle Paul addresses the sudden increase in practice among the Romans due to their disfavor with God regarding his existence evident in nature. As you suggest charity should be the rule, though there are scenarios in which perpetrators merit measured retribution.
Mortal sin can separate us all Mr. Morgan.
morganD: spare us the homosexual playbook lines. You’re castigating those who disapprove of unnatural acts because we just won’t submit to it the common zeitgeist.
Morgan D.,
Yes, “we need to lower the attack rhetoric.”
Unfortunately, the rhetoric is in reaction to the more radicalized homosexual faction and its aggression to redefine “marriage,” and then the capitulation of get-along-go-along corporate America and even the inventive rhetoric of the U.S. Supreme Court. Over a century ago Supreme Court Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr. already signaled our modernday undermining of human civilization, in only a few decades:
“. . . I often doubt whether it would not be a gain if every word of moral significance could be banished from the law altogether. . . .” (Harvard Law Review, 1895). Earlier, he also had written: “I think that the sacredness of human life is a PURELY MUNICIPAL IDEA of no validity outside the jurisdiction” (cited in Mark de Wolfe, ed., The Pollock-Holmes Letters, 1874-1932, 1942, Vol. 2, p. 36, CAPS added).
Nearly one in six young adults 18 to 24 identifies as LGBT.
Grooming works. If this was some innate occurrence; it wouldn’t be increasing.
Grooming and gaining social credits both.
Back in the day everyone wanted to identify as an American Indian.
Yes indeed, a friend (with four children, the last of which is a recent public school escapee, er I mean graduate) spoke about how “identifying” as part of the alphabet groups results in special treatment; especially attractive at a time when one starts to crave external affirmation.
Thanks for adding my oversight.
If Martin were to publicly reveal a homosexual inclination would anybody be shocked?
Interesting how he’s used his Wharton MBA to make his disordered advocacy into cottage industry.
To “Rev.” Radcliffe, “Rev.” Martin and their ring-leader Pontiff Francis:
I have a dear friend in Christ who took your bad counsel as a young man, and lived the G and B lifestyle of your LGBTQ ideology. He left it and stopped listening to false men like you, and he told me the truth that this “gift” you are promoting is “Satanic,” and the people he encountered were openly and literally Satan worshippers. He suffers grievously with STDs and AIDS (thanks to your counsel), and knows he is dying, middle-aged, from the ravages of this lifestyle you encourage on the young.
He says this about your LGBTQ ideology: “It is insanity for adults to teach children and young people that it is OK for a man to inseminate another person’s intestines.”
Listen to him, and perhaps in turn, repent of your ideology if sexual sinfulness and the spirit of fornication and sodomy and death, and consider following Jesus instead.
I’m so very sorry, Chris. Truly, a voice in the wilderness.
Every now and then it is necessary simply to state that Everyone is welcome in Christ’s House – LGBTQ++ & whatever, but – it’s HIS house and HE makes the rules.”
Exactly. And those who choose not to live under His authority will be cast out of His presence, for all eternity. People should take sin seriously. God certainly does.
Yes. Define prominent.
If, by prominent, you mean showing up everywhere, Fr. Martin is certainly prominent today. Fr. Radcliffe may have been prominent at one time.
If one believes that God positively wills sinful desires, then one believes either that God wishes us ill, or that those desires aren’t actually sinful. Either way, one has departed from Catholic faith and teaching. One has become an Episcopalian or some other phony type which instrumentalizes Christ in the service of narcissism. If these priests believe some other sect has the truth, why do they not join join that sect and evangelize for it? It is due to their pride and their lusts.
There has been far too much dancing with the devil in the pale moonlight regarding these pathetic losers. No one who clings to, works to justify and promulgates grievous and disgusting sins of the flesh is, at the same time, in Christ. That is the root lie which all of these poor souls and, indeed, bergoglio himself have embraced. In their obstinacy, let them dance. Just don’t make the deadly mistake of cutting in.
Lukewarmness has no rights, but it often can illuminate that which is True, in this case, shedding light on the counterfeit church that has been attempting to subsist in The True Church Of Christ, which exists “Through, With, And In Christ, In The Unity Of The Holy Ghost (Filioque).
“I know your deeds…because you are lukewarm, I am about to spit you out of My mouth.” – Jesus The Christ.
Jesus promises that “those who overcome lukewarmness” and return to The Catholic Faith, will be Saved.
We can know through Faith and reason, that “spiritual ambivalence “, is not of The Holy Ghost.
“Penance, Penance, Penance.”
https://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2021/02/penance-penance-penance-she-came-to.html
Under the radar was (and is) the U.S. retail ban on the movie “Kubi” by Takeshi Kitano (2023). The very violent but historical accurate movie of the rise of power of the samurai warlord Toyotomi Hideyoshi in the 1500’s offends the LGBTQ community because of the real practice of the samurai involving homosexual acts to demonstrate fidelity and allegiance. Very much a learned, social norm, not of love, nor attraction but as a symbol of power of one man over another – like contemporary American prisons. If the Pope cannot see this is the return of paganism then we need to continue to pray for him and for the Holy Spirit to protect our church.
Pardon me while I nonchalantly vomit. Fr Martin is a disgrace.
I suspect that Our Lord will soon visit upon the Church and the world the well-deserved Sodom and Gomorrah treatment.
Enough about these lifestyle choices! The most important thing is to get to heaven. The English comedian Kenny Everett was a successful comic in the early 80s and was a baptised Catholic, but accepted the lifestyle choice forested by Radcliffe and Martin. He died, but not before his devoted sister pressed him to reconcile with the Church which he readily did and a Catholic priest spent a day helping him to go through his life. The priest said it was one of the most beautiful experiences of his life. THAT IT WHAT SHOULD BE SPOKEN ABOUT: THE Four LAST THINGS!! NOT CLIMATE, NOT ADAM AND STEVE BUT GETTING TO HEAVEN!!! HEAR THAT MARTIN, RADCLIFFE AND POPE FRANCIS??
Father Peter hit the nail on the head — “moral derangement.” I would add an accompanying pathology presently boldly on display at the Holy See — “theological derangement.”
Time to put the dogs back on the leash.
We are witnessing the deliberate deconstruction of Roman Catholicism from within by sociopaths who will lie to your face with a stole around their shoulders. Exhibit A: James Martin insisting that he is in conformity to the teaching of the Church. No, he is not, he is a liar, as are each of his enabling superiors and confreres in this subterfuge.
When are we going to start to say the truth to the faces of those who would deceive us? We are all sporting ecclesiastical Stockholm Syndrome.
The ‘online Synod ‘ here at CWR – good in its own way ..we are blessed in our times to be able to take in good surprises of our times including the approval of Medjugorje …the deeper awareness of the Divine Will revelations too , given through learned theologians such as below to add to aid in all these problems of our times which are interconnected , as often reminded by our Holy Father of the oneness in our wounds –
to trust that God is in the process of renewal of the earth -https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SP5TK5HhclQ&t=792s
Have listened to only a few of the talks; was good to hear in one such talk the words of Blessed Mother telling us to bring sorrows to her to respond – ‘ Love You Jesus and Mary in all our sorrows ‘- those words are like echoes of that of the Holy Father , that our oneness is in our wounds …we could trust that such occasions , persons involved in such , even generations can be brought to The Lord to say with each and all to transform pain of memories.. experiences ..of having had to leave little ones ..their pain ..pain and fear of rejection of all that likely underlie lot of the wounds around ..
The decision of the Holy Father to have a controversial figure – Fr.Chirodi as a consultant also can be seen in such a light of good intention , to help persons who feel rejected by The Church to have more trust that they too are being listened to …to help bring them to deeper ways of living in the Divine Will and its holiness as emphatically invoked by another good priest – Fr Celso – to seal holiness through intercession of Luisa and ministry of holy angels – all can join in such prayers for the Synodal occasion, all such occasions , elections..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LT21uo8IzJ4
“The decision of the Holy Father to have a controversial figure – Fr.Chirodi as a consultant also can be seen in such a light of good intention, to help persons who feel rejected by The Church to have more trust that they too are being listened to.”
The road to hell is paved with good intentions, and some leaders seem intent on leading lost people there. Do not make excuses for moral evil.
Please have the heart and mind of the Beloved and see with His eyes, thoughts and ways, Chiodi and his assignment is not to accomplish the Beloved’s Will but the ancient serpents…it it a work of darkness not the Beloved Light… may He bring His Good from every good and darkness
Brokeback Martin is a SJW pretending to be a priest. Any other Pope would have laicized him a long time ago and banished him to a remote monastery to pray for forgiveness.
Monasteries are not penal colonies. Best Mr. Martin go out into the world and earn his living with the insecurity and worry most of us shoulder and navigate by night some of the poisonous waters he encourages others to do. Maybe he would wake up and then come to a discernment in conformity to Christ.
Martin is the most tragic of figures. He requires our prayer, as do others who distort the the Gospel for their own consolation.
I’m getting the word … nonce!
Here we go again with the false linguistics about immoral homosexual. It is not a disorder but a preferred act like all sin. These two priest are using false language to justify homosexuality. This immoral sexuality like all immoral sexual acts art not “God-given” but are evil as is the words by Radcliffe and Martin.
Christ said that He would be with His Church until the end of time, and we have to rely on that no matter what traitors try to do to it. It is mind-boggling that in spite of everything, it is still vigorous in administering valid Sacraments (including confession) and preaching Jesus.
This bears repeating.
The explosion of vocations to the Dominicans in Ireland is phenomenal! Because they believe in the charism of their founder and they are orthodox and that is attracting so many young men and women who are tired of the fluidity that now stands for Catholic thought and belief. Radcliffe is a thankfully dying remnant to the hippy generation that offered nothing, to his vision that is poison to the vision of Dominic and Francis!