Denver, Colo., May 31, 2018 / 03:09 am (CNA).- Earlier this year, a 25-year-old man smashed his rental van into innocent pedestrians in downtown Toronto on a Tuesday, killing 10 and injuring more than a dozen.
The driver was not part of the usually-suspected terrorist networks. Instead, he was found to be part of the “incels” – short for involuntary celibates – an obscure online community of mostly men who blame women and society for their lack of a sex life. They believe the distribution of sex in the world to be unfair – particularly to them.
Their once dark and largely-unknown corner of the internet has since garnered some attention following the attack, prompting New York Times columnist Ross Douthat to posit that sex robots will be society’s answer to the incels – the logical way to pacify their lust before they turn more vans on innocent civilians.
“Whether sex workers and sex robots can actually deliver real fulfillment is another matter,” Douthat wrote. “But that they will eventually be asked to do it, in service to a redistributive goal that for now still seems creepy or misogynist or radical, feels pretty much inevitable.”
A subsequent cover story on sex robots featured in New York Magazine noted that some research has predicted that by 2050, sex robots will not just be for the angry incels, but for society at large. People will have – and possibly prefer – intimate relationships to sex robots than to people, the story predicted.
Are we more than an orgasm?
Sr. Mary Patrice Ahearn is a psychologist and a religious sister with the Religious Sisters of Mercy in Alma, Michigan.
Ahearn said that the rise in communities like incels and the prospect of relationships with sex robots points to the fact that society has forgotten God, or the transcendental aspect of the human experience.
“I think what they’re both pointing to, which nobody talks about, is the transcendental desire or part of each of us,” she said. “(W)hen we take out this transcendental part, or dare I say faith or God, you have to fill that void with something.”
People need to seriously grapple with the transcendental ache and longing that they feel in their lives, and come to terms with what that might mean, rather than looking to fill the void with sex robots or other technology, she said.
“So I would ask the question: Is the deepest desire in your heart to be sexually satisfied, to have an orgasm? Is that the deepest desire of my heart? And people have to seriously ask those questions,” she said.
“Everyone has this desire for sex,” Ahearn said, “but so do the cows we drive by on the road, we all have that.”
Not only is society increasingly irreligious and unwilling to acknowledge the transcendental, but humanity is also losing some of the basic bonds of family and friendship to technology, bonds which used to allow people to experience intimacy outside of sexual relationships, she added.
“We’re more connected than ever if you think of technology and all the ways that we can communicate,” she said. But it doesn’t always lead to deeper human relationships because it’s “this constant checking with their devices, just constant restlessness with it.”
The rise of the incels and the sex robot seem to be indications (albeit extreme ones) of another societal problem – we’re really, deeply lonely.
The loneliness problem
Recent research has shown that Americans are lonelier than ever, and technology may be the biggest culprit. A 2016 study found a strong correlation between amounts of time spent on social media and depression in young adults – the longer one lingered on sites like Facebook and Instagram, the more depressed they were.
Last year, former U.S. Surgeon General Dr. Vivek H. Murthy began warning of a loneliness epidemic, a public health crisis he says has gone largely ignored but that nonetheless has detrimental impacts on people’s physical and emotional well-being.
Just last month, a survey of Americans conducted by Cigna insurance company also found that people are lonelier than ever – especially the young. At least half of the survey respondents identified themselves as lonely, and the average American scored a 44 on the UCLA-created “loneliness” scale, qualifying them as, well, lonely. The Cigna survey also found that how people used social media mattered – those who used it to reach out and make real connections were less lonely than those who just passively scrolled through feeds.
Cristina Barba is the founder and executive director of The Culture Project, an organization which sends teams of young people to high schools and youth groups to “proclaim the dignity of the human person and the richness of living sexual integrity, inviting our culture to become fully alive.”
In their work with young people, Barba said they have found that technology is exacerbating the already-emerging problems of social isolation in American culture to the extreme. Not only are young people more lonely, she said, they often do not know how to make authentic, real-world connections.
“It’s a combination of a lot of things,” Barba told CNA. “The breakdown of family and marriage, families move far apart from each other, people not even having their parish worship communities like they used to…those are all broader societal issues.” “But I think what is most pervasive and most recent is technology,” she added. “Technology has just taken this to the next level, much more quickly.”
Barba’s findings match up with what researcher and psychologist Jean Twenge found among what she calls iGen, the generation after Millennials that grew up never knowing a world without the internet and smartphones.
“Social-networking sites like Facebook promise to connect us to friends. But the portrait of iGen teens emerging from the data is one of a lonely, dislocated generation,” Twenge said in a September 2017 article for The Atlantic. “Teens who visit social-networking sites every day but see their friends in person less frequently are the most likely to agree with the statements ‘A lot of times I feel lonely,’ ‘I often feel left out of things,’ and ‘I often wish I had more good friends.’ Teens’ feelings of loneliness spiked in 2013 and have remained high since,” Twenge said.
The Culture Project itself started out as a community of friends that came together, bonding over the fact that they had tried the culture’s path to happiness in various ways and had found it wanting, Barba noted.
Instead of “sitting around and moaning” about it, Barba said that group of friends decided to do something to make a difference. They started living in community, and forming the mission of The Culture Project, which gives talks to teens throughout the country about chastity and living lives of sexual integrity.
But while community has been a “key pillar” for The Culture Project, they’ve found that technology has made it so that teens today do not know how to form community or even friendships among themselves, let alone romantic relationships.
“We’ve had parents coming to us and say, ok it’s great that you’re talking about virtue and dating, but my kids don’t even know what it means to have a friend. Can you talk about friendship?”
Today’s teens are a generation that has been raised on the internet and social media, Barba said, which means that their idea of friendship equates to that of a follower.
“It’s like a show that you’re putting on,” she said, “it’s people that follow you and people that you follow. It’s not an interaction, the only interaction is to make others jealous, or to be cooler than or to prove yourself. There isn’t actually a meeting of common interests, or someone you do stuff together with, someone you care about. All of those things are lost through social media at a young age.”
‘Encounter’ as a solution
Culture Project missionaries address the friendship crisis in multiple ways throughout their encounters with teens, Barba said. One of the most effective ways to address this crisis has been simply modeling authentic, healthy friendships among the Culture Project teams.
“It’s actually them seeing the interactions of our missionaries – a couple guys who are normal, fun, attractive young men and women who are a little bit older than them…and they see these people interacting and it’s a beautiful, healthy, normal dynamic of friendship,” she said. “What we model in our interactions is what is profound and shocking to them.”
They also take the time to address social media, and bring to their students’ attention how much time they are probably spending on social media, and how it could be impacting their relationships.
Pornography and sexting – major pitfalls for young adults in a technology driven world – are also important to address.
The idea is not to bash technology, which is a neutral tool, Barba said, but to raise awareness of how addicted they have likely become to their devices, and to offer practical tips to counter that with more human interaction in their lives.
“We just bring to their attention – what are the ways that we use this? And wow, how many hours a day am I really on that?”
The challenge students to do media fasts – whether that’s an hour a day, or even a week, that they don’t use social media, and see how they feel during that time.
They also challenge them to fill that time with real human interaction – and they’ve had to come up with basic friendship guidelines to teach students how to do this.
“We’re literally making suggestions – and I just have to laugh – it’s the way people need dating guides right now, but it’s like friendship guides,” Barba said. “Like what do friends do? You could meet and go to the mall. You could meet and go to the movies. You could meet and go for a walk. I’m not even kidding.”
While the problem is not one that is easily fixed, Barba said she and her missionaries have found that little efforts can make a big difference.
“I think even just providing a space for young people, whether its a physical space or an event, but providing activities they can do together,” she said.
“It’s so basic, just basic human things, like families and parents spending time together. Or basic community, what parish life used to be or should be – people living near each other, that care about each other, that worship together, that have fun together, that have meals together, things like that,” she said.
[…]
An issue not addressed by the survey is contraception. Perhaps because they know the result already anyway. The vast majority of US Catholics do not disapprove of contraception. The Bishops typically sidestep this issue as they know how most people feel.
If 60% of Catholics view the horror of abortion favorably, I would put their favorability to contraception north of 90%.
Hard to grasp that Asians now outnumber by twice the black population. Although there continues to appear a quickly increasing presence of Asians in the media, in government. Hispanics remain the largest second to Whiteys. With the purposeful influx of migrating Hispanics including recent waves of Chinese, the Administration’s plan to overwhelm the electorate to Blue is going well. Also what needs to be accounted for is the ratio of births considered Catholics and the vast number continuing to decline practice that gives the overall figure for Catholics a starkly different value.
All is well on the Eastern Front in Rome the Pontiff’s laissez faire doctrine of amiable non demanding Catholicism washes away any thought of guilt among the apostate nominals. His Holiness can’t be faulted for a process that long preceded his pontificate, rather he deserves acclaim from Leftists and liberal Catholics for giving the movement his blessing.
It would be remiss if His Holiness is not recognized for contributing two crackerjack ideas to smooth the process, FS and the blessing of those in disordered relationships, plus DI and the eternal holiness of everyone.
Whiteys? Really?!
Thank you. I thought I was the only one…
Oh, here is a third…
Add me to the list. “Whiteys” is not acceptable.
Mrs Whitlock, although I’ve been called worse, I’m proud of being a Whitey. Guess my attempt at nuanced humor didn’t work.
The Pew research shows that there truly is no ‘Catholic’ church in the USA except for a small remnant who faithfully attend Mass and despise the murder of Holy Innocents in the womb. Much of this may be laid at the feet of our feeble ecclesiastical who only give mild lip service to this execrable Holocaust.
Second to Whiteys?You don’t sound like a real priest to me.
“Pew says, is that Catholics’ opinions about abortion tend to align more with their political leanings than with the teachings of their Church.” That statement is most concerning. I don’t understand how an individual would believe in a political party more strongly than they do their own church, as in The Church. This is a personal failure on so many levels.
Another way to look at it is that people who embrace Church teaching on her “not negotiable” doctrines have a home in only one major party, i.e., that’s why they are there and not the other way around.
Absolutely, Mr. Leonardi. I personally wish there was an alternate political party we could support. I’ve never really felt at home in the GOP, but it is what it is.
There is a party….it is called the American solidarity party….it’s platform id’s based on catholic social life especially pro life and pro family…..look it up
Thank you Ronald. Perhaps one day we’ll have a better choice of political party to affiliate with but I think it’s going to take some time to get momentum.
Whatever hope for reversing what is undeniable Catholic nihilism among willfully dumb Catholics from having been led by two intelligent popes for 35 years, has been obliterated by a Pope who says such childishly stupid things regarding Catholic morality like “The Church must no longer be a Church of No.”
“…. Catholics (28%) say they attend Mass weekly or more often … Protestants say they attend weekly service 40%.” I will argue that both Catholics and Protestant numbers are overwhelmingly too high. When it comes to self-reporting, we delude ourselves with how much TV we watch, how much we give to charity, how many calories we consume, and how often we attend church. I don’t recall the exact numbers, but there was a study done in a smallish NE Ohio town. They interviewed people on how often they attended religious services but then they counted cars in church parking lots on Sunday. Not even close. If you need to go somewhere and want to avoid traffic, go on Sunday morning.
I don’t like abortion, but I don’t make it a single issue when I vote. I do vote 100% Democrat. MAGA Protestants hate the Catholic Church and would like to ban us from the US if they could. There’s just too much of a divide between us for me to dance with the protestants. I’m also a pro-labor union Catholic and was a leader in my Federal employee union. I won’t vote for a fascist totalitarian just because that person opposes abortion. I prefer to live in freedom and to not impose my religious beliefs on anyone else.
“MAGA Protestants hate the Catholic Church and would like to ban us from the US if they could.”
I know quite a few such “MAGA Protestants,” and none of them hold a view remotely like this.
However, it’s quite clear that those who worship at the Altar of Abortion, Contraception, Homosexuality, and Transgenderism do indeed hate the Catholic Church and would happily destroy her if they could.
So, just saying…
Carl, do you forget that God gave people free will (re: abortion, contraception, homosexuality, transgender, etc. etc. etc.)? Why are you trying to take away people’s God-given right of free will?
You don’t have to agree with them, but it is not your God-given right to control other people or take away their own God-given rights.
I don’t understand why “live and let live” is the most difficult concept for Catholics to grasp. Just because you see something or someone is doing something you personally don’t like, that does not mean you get to boss them around or control their choices. You would not like it if anyone did that to you. Why do you think it is your place to do it to others?
Please explain to me why you think it is your place to control people. I want to understand.
Micha, don’t you think taking away an innocent life is about control?
True God gave each the gift of free will to chose between good and evil, the good to follow Him in obedience to His Way, His Life and His Truth or the evi, to sin, to go their own way from God. Yes, you are totally free to chose but remember choices have consequences intended and unintended in the here and now as well as the then and forever. The best we can hope and prat for you is to chose wisely every so wisely. Your soul is a terrible thing to lose. It is not the Catholics who shall judge you in the end but God. The best that the Catholic community can do is rebuke your sinful choices in the here and now with sufficient time for you and other to return to God. Good luck with your choices.
This is not worth replying to, but…. The absence of any standards or morality in a society , which is the basis of civilization, results in chaos. It can be argued the world was a happier safer place a few generations ago, when most people went to church and lived their lives according to moral principles. The spread of the early Catholic church was in large part responsible for a civilizing effect on the Roman empire, especially in terms of personal behaviors and what was acceptable ( a hard no on adultery, infanticide, wife beating, etc). Secularists like yourself would love to eradicate religion. How well has that worked out in places like China, Russia, Cuba, North Korea,and much of the Middle East?? Why, it would appear that their people have no rights at all, and their leaders not only tell them what to do, but have he power of life and death over them. Women in the Middle East are especially disposable. But we are starting to see here the result of less religion: the rapid increase of violent crimes, random physical attacks on mostly women by strangers, antisemitism, flash mob thefts,transgender surgeries on children,a rise in drug related deaths,serial casual sexual partners and broken families, abortions through the 9th month, and on and on. How are these good things again? People are making their choices, right?? So that should be great. These are all things opposed by the church for good reason. Many of these behaviors (adultery lets say), impact others such as the adulterer’s spouse and children. “Live and let live” or as some of us will say “anything goes”, has a major impact on society all around us. What we do in almost any action DOES affect others, for good or ill. For us to choose Good, as God would have us, we need a framework of knowledge and rules to help us understand how to behave. Which is why the juvenile perspective of “why cant I just do what I want?” does not work. It is the death of civilization, and the epitome of selfishness.Further, a quick reading of the Bible indicates that in addition to free will, God does favor some rules. Ten Commandments and all of that.
Its not about control of another person graced by God with free will. It about admonishing another who is placing their soul in jeopardy of damnation. It is what is termed a spiritual work of mercy. If the admonishing “pinches” perhaps it should be taken ever more seriously.
“It about admonishing another who is placing their soul in jeopardy of damnation.” Why do you believe it is your place to admonish anyone who doesn’t believe what you believe? They are exercising their God-given right to free will and you are 100% encroaching upon that.
Usn’t it up to God to do the “pinching” and for YOU to mind your own business?
Some people don’t want to be converted. Some people don’t want to share in or practice your religion. Some people have their own set of beliefs.
So why do you feel like it is your place to force your beliefs on others? That is you attempting to control others and denying their right to free will.
Hypocrisy is not and will never be ok.
Your whole question seems to center on the topic of sexuality. That smacks of wanting to justify doing any sexual activity you wish. Is adultery OK? Is Pedophilia? What about incest? What about bestiality? And if you think bestiality DOESN’T ever happen I will suggest you see some of the horrifying literature sent to me by animal rights groups. To address other topics, is stealing ok? Is murder? Are lines only drawn where they are convenient for YOU?? What about the ways your behavior impacts others? And what we do ALWAYS impacts others, even if unintended. Again, a society as a whole needs established rules and limitations and for much of civilization that has been derived from religious belief. These rules echo back to rules which GOD has handed us for a reason, to prevent injury to ourselves and others.Believers accept the idea that God created us, supports our every breath,and loves us, and thus we owe him worship, love and obedience in return.This is really not that hard to figure out.There are of course people who think this path is not for them.As you suggest, free will allows them to reject God and God’s laws, as they wish. Such folk usually do not believe in heaven or hell or an after-life. The real issue is, what if they are wrong?? An eternity separated from the God of all goodness seems like a really bad choice.
“Live and let live…”
Tell that to the pro-abortionists. They don’t want to let unborn babies live.
Even a ten-year-old can grasp that concept.
Did you learn you sense of moral logic from Charles Manson?
Those who practice contraception hate the Church? Nonsense.
I never met a contraceptivite with sufficient honorability to learn a thing about Catholic moral theology while not ridiculing it.
If you chose to abstain from contraception, fine and dandy. Just do not try to prevent others from employing contraception. It might be wise to stay out of married couples bedrooms.
Sometimes Mr. Baker those folks are not informed. Even just from a health & environment angle, many people have come to realize the risks of hormonal contraceptives.
One of my children taught NFP & consulted healthcare professionals. Some of the women who came to learn about NFP were not Catholic nor even people who believed in God. But learning about how miraculously we are made by our Creator can lead some people to Faith.
Women have turned their gift of natural fertility over to pharmaceutical companies to control & regulate.
I believe this as well. Good to see someone point it out.
John Paul II said a society that does not protect its most vulnerable cannot survive.
As an Evangelical Protestant for 47 years until I converted to Catholicism (and I attended Evangelical Protestant in which some of the best writers and pastors in the U.S. grew up; e.g., John Ortberg), I disagree with you that MAGA Protestants hate Catholics. First, I think the numbers of “MAGA” anything are greatly exaggerated. Also, I see nothing wrong with think and praying, “Make America Great Again.” But my main reason for disagreeing with your comment is that in the 47 years that I was a Protestant, I saw so much support and love for Catholics. Many of the missionaries I knew (and still know) work alongside of Catholics, especially in medical settings, in their country of ministry. Many Protestants first became aware of the evils of abortion when they worked and attended protest rallies and prayer meetings alongside of Catholics–and they also learned to respect, love, and even admire the Catholic dedication to ending abortion! Finally, great authors like Chuck Colson (R.I.P.), along with Father Richard Neuhaus (R.I.P.) started Evangelicals and Catholics Together, and there are other Protestants who have become involved with Catholics in various groups. Go talk to Protestants, please.
As a Catholic,I have traveled in largely Protestant circles in some personal and family affairs. I have never encountered an anti-Catholic person face to face. Maybe because in much of the country Catholics are so numerous. However in reading things online which allow public comment, I have run across more than a few comments by Protestants who must be on the fringe and say things like Catholics are not really Christians, or they say false things about Mary. I would NOT say these people are the majority of Protestants at all.
Nor have I EVER heard Protestant MAGA supporters attack Catholics. For that matter, they want to live and let live and I dont hear them attacking anyone, regardless of religion. I have voted Trump twice and will do so again, even if I have to write him in on the ballot.
I hope our Jewish brethren, who largely vote democrat, have had their eyes opened by the Biden administration’s attempts to undermine the Israeli war effort of late. Its time for them to support the Republicans.
Well I was raised Catholic and I’ve come to learn the teaching is All wrong! You are supposed to confess to God,not man! Jesus is the One and Only mediator not Mary! And it doesn’t matter if you go to church because our bodies are the church! Our mouths are supposed to shout how great Our God is and Our hearts are to be like Jesus and be kind to Each and every soul! Not judging and dividing because of race, religion or a political preference! But Catholics know this right? 🤔
Here is a little Bible 101: John 20:23 “Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.” And for extra credit read James 5:16 Gabriel, in all seriousness and love, I pray you sit in on a good RCIA program and reconsider The Church.
Gabriel, if you were to pray for me you would be a mediator yourself.
🙂
If Jesus is the one and only mediator, why didn’t he simply come to earth without Mary??
Our bodies are the church ONLy because the Church has the Body of Christ with which she may transform us INTO Christ’s body THROUGH Christ’s body which was made IN the power of the Holy Spirit, WITH MARY’s agreeing to be God’s intermediary and partner and helpmate in His Incarnation.
You would be better be served if you could serve God with your mouth closed until He helps you open it again in the Reconciliation Room. After that at your next Mass you could open your mind and your mouth to beg of Him to mediate your membership into Christ’s body. Then you could be made intelligent, good and beautiful by and through and with Him made through Mary and the Holy Spirit. READ SCRIPTURE silently. There you’ll find your friend, your faith and your Catholic Church again.
Jesus performed his first public miracle at Cana at the request of His mother. And as he was suffering on the cross he took the time to put his mother in the care of John the Apostle with his dying breath. Its very sad that Protestants feel so threatened that they feel the need to disparage our Lord’s mother.
Thank you to Ron (above) for quoting John 20:23— Jesus speaking to the Apostles: ” Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them and whose sins you retain they are retained.” Well, you could not have sins either forgiven or retained unless you TOLD them to the Apostles, correct?? Funny how Protestants like to skip over passages which do not fit their narrative. You can and should ask God to forgive you for sins ( hence the Act of Contrition). But Jesus gave us a process He wished us to follow.For Catholics that is Confession.
“I don’t like abortion, but I don’t make it a single issue when I vote. I do vote 100% Democrat”.
So why are you voting for Democrats who 100% LIKE abortion, often up until the moment of birth?
I’m a pro-life MAGA Catholic (yes, we exist) and let me just say that Joe Biden using the Catholic Faith as cover for his stance on abortion is despicable.
Christ is Risen, everyone. ☦️
Pro-life Catholic Democrats need to realize that the single most important social justice issue today is opposition to abortion, and that is upheld currently by the Republican party. When a nation ends the killing of its unborn, other social issues will be easier to address because people will no longer be viewed as objects.
Females (not women only) ages 9 to 50+, are raped, have life threatening pregnancies, live in dire poverty, etc. aren’t their lives of any value? Life is not so clear and simple as anti abortionists view it. It’s complicated and compassion and understanding are vital components for understanding how this is a life and death issue for the females and medical personnel involved.
Rape victims represent an exceedingly tiny percentage of pregnancies. And a clear majority of Americans, even pro-lifers, are generally supportive of a woman having access to abortion in the event of rape, incest or to save the life of the mother, propaganda from the left notwithstanding. Even in RED states which are trying to tighten up availability of abortion, a woman would still have a few months to make a decision. Pregnancy is NOT a disease to be eradicated. It is a normal bodily function. Women who “can’t ” become pregnant for whatever reason should think a little harder before they jump into bed with someone. There are too many repeaters at abortion clinics, and too many who push into the second and third trimester to do it. What the left wants is the most extreme abortion availability in all states at all times. Some of us would advocate for the exercise of more responsibility.
So why are pro-aborts so completely devoid of compassion and understanding? Why are pro-aborts completely, without a single exception, unwilling to operate a crisis pregancy center that provides aid and support to women seeking to save their child in difficult circumtances such as those thousands operated by pro-lifers, people whom pro-aborts, operating from a lack of compassion and understanding, with adolescent insistence call “anti-abortion?”
Jean, yes any girl or woman past puberty can become a mother. That’s just the way our biology works.
We don’t punish children for the crimes of their fathers. Feticide is not a treatment for sexual assault and is just a secondary violation of the mother.
Life itself may be complicated but Catholic moral teaching about the innocent child in the womb is pretty clear. I’d really recommend learning more about that and why every life has value, no matter what the circumstances are behind our conception.
Nice propaganda piece. There is no such thing as being “anti abortion.” People who oppose the destruction of life because it’s inconvenient are pro life. There are no “life and death issues.” That’s just histrionic emotional reasoning.
It wouldn’t be a bad idea to conduct these surveys with distinctions between Catholics who are Catholic and Catholics who are anti-Catholic bigots.
Fact 10. Catholics in the US are not very good Catholics!
Some of the commentors to your articles refer to homosexual acts as homosexuality. That usage is confusing and misleading. Homosexuality is not sinful, it is a heavy cross, it is an unwilled condition. Homosexual acts are sinful, the condition of homosexuality is not.
This article leaves out the most important fact;
No one with an I.Q. over 100 would ever be catholic.
Mr. Harper sets out to prove he is both a troll and a simpleton. Mission accomplished.
At geni.com we find a broad list of famous historical geniuses and their estimated IQs. A quick scan for known Catholics among them gives this roll call:
At the “bottom” are Masaccio, Bernini, Thomas A. Kempis, Columbus and de Tocqueville all at 140. Meister Eckhart 145. Gutenberg 150. Titian, Savonarola, and John Kennedy 155. Tertullian and Bottichelli 160. Cardinal Richelieu, Boccaccio, Mendel, Chaucer, Marconi and Mazzini 165. Thomas Aquinas, Origen, Pierre Curie, William of Ockham, Spengler, Rochefoucauld, and Coulomb all 170. Pasteur, Paracelsus, Campanella and Thomas More 175. Alberti, Brunelleschi, Duhem, Nicholas de Cusa, Augustine, Marie Curie, Michelangelo, Wolsey, Napoleon, Roger Bacon, Lavoisier, Teilhard de Chardin, Alexander Pope, Montaigne, Bossuet, Hugo, Beethoven all 180. Erasmus and Pascal 185. John Neumann 190. Descartes and Galileo 195…and some guy named Leonardo de Vinci at 200.
I was in a hurry, but don’t recall seeing either David Harper or myself on the list.