
Chicago, Ill., Aug 29, 2018 / 03:03 pm (CNA).- On Aug. 27, Cardinal Blase Cupich of Chicago was interviewed by Chicago NBC 5 reporter Mary Ann Ahern, about an Aug. 25 testimony published by a former Vatican ambassador to the U.S., Archbishop Carlo Vigano. That testimony alleged that Archbishop Theodore McCarrick was instrumental in Cupich’s appointment as Archbishop of Chicago in 2014.
After airing a story containing portions of that interview, NBC 5 published five videos which contain more footage of Ahern’s conversation with Vigano. For clarity, CNA has transcribed those videos.
Video one:
NBC: Does the pope need to tell Catholics exactly what he knew about Cardinal McCarrick and when he first knew it?
Cupich: Well I think that the Holy Father on the airplane had exactly the kind of answer that was needed.
He was asked about the letter of the Archbishop Vigano. He said he read it. He encouraged the media to read it carefully and to come to their own conclusions. And that he would not have any final statement – any other statement on it. I think what he was signaling is two things; the first is that, you have to see whether or not these remarks stand up to scrutiny.
There are so many things in there that he says about so many people that it’s impossible to try to get into the weeds on this. And he [the pope] trusts the media to use their skills, their expertise, and, he said, their maturity to explore these questions.
For instance, look at the language of the letter and compare it to the language that’s in these websites and news outlets that released the document. There’s so many parallels there in terms of the kinds of things that they’re attacking the Holy Father and other people about. The other is look at, look at- look at these things that were said on an individual basis.
That’s why I clarified it. I offered a statement that addressed the three areas that he said about me. I suspect others are going to be doing the same thing.
So the news media now needs to go and press him for information. I read the Washington Post and other major newspapers and their first line always is, he’s made these accusations but offered no proof. Let’s let the news media do their job here.
But for the Holy Father, I think to get into each and every one of those aspects, in some way is inappropriate and secondly, the pope has a bigger agenda. He’s gotta get on with other things of talking about the environment and protecting migrants and carrying on the work of the Church. We’re not going to go down a rabbit hole on this.
NBC: But, does there also need to be an independent investigation from top to bottom of who knew what when?
Cupich: Oh, in fact, you know the president of our bishops’ conference has already called for that weeks ago in saying that we need to know what happened here of how he was promoted, what happened in terms of McCarrick, but also we need to find out what happened in Pennsylvania. Let’s not overlook that. Let’s not let this letter take us away from the fact that there was something flawed in the way that the Charter, which should have been followed from 2002 on, was implemented. We have done it here in Chicago, and we’re proud of it. I’m deeply disappointed and somewhat angry that there were people in another state, in another jurisdiction, that were not doing the things that we promised to do. We should hold each other accountable and we need an independent review of that too.
NBC: By an independent review, would that be Lisa Madigan and the attorney general’s office? (ed note: Lisa Madigan is Illinois’ attorney general)
Cupich: Well, no no no. Independent review of what, nationally, has happened. I think, for instance, we need to call on lay people who are skilled to find out what happened.
Now, with regard to Lisa Madigan and the attorney general, we talked this morning. And I assured her of our full cooperation. I said, “First of all, we don’t mind at all because they have all our documents anyway. We turned them over in ‘14 and ‘15. We also have all the names of people who have any credible accusation against them through our review board that have been released to the officials. So we’re – The only thing I said is that if we’re going to move in this direction, let’s make child protection the priority. It’s not just about the Catholic Church. Let’s look at all the agencies and institutions that deal with children on a day-to-day basis because we’re seeing in the newspapers every day inappropriate behavior in various institutions, schools systems and so on, with regard to child safety. So let’s make sure that everybody who deals with children opens their files and their records . . . (video cuts off)
Video 2:
NBC: So does the rule that those who knew but did nothing, or perhaps worse – it is worse – covered if up, does that apply to everyone? For instance, if the pope knew something, some time ago, about these allegations, should he resign?
Cupich: Well I think that my answer to that would be very simple. My experience with the pope is that as soon as he knows about something, he acts on it. As soon as he’s given evidence about this, he acts on it. Let’s remember the accusation of Archbishop Vigano is that this information was known under the pontificate of John Paul II and Benedict XVI. But who was the one who took action? It was Pope Francis. When Pope Francis received the report from Cardinal Dolan, who did his job in accord with our Charter, he acted right away. So I think that the record shows that whenever there’s actionable information, Pope Francis acts.
NBC: Does that same rule apply to you?
Cupich: Oh well, I think that yes, I think that my record shows that I have acted. I’ve been in three dioceses now and if you look at the newspaper reports in Rapid City and Spokane about my handling of situations. And here in the archdiocese, even when there’s adult misbehavior by clerics. We’re public about it. We have been all the time. We’ve always put out information to parishes. So I’m fairly – I’m very sure that we have always followed those procedures.
NBC: So you did have a critical role as the chairman of the committee protecting children. Wouldn’t an allegation involving a bishop or a cardinal, including McCarrick, wouldn’t that have come to your attention?
Cupich: Yes, if somebody made it, it would have come to my attention. I can say that when I was chairman, and I have never had any knowledge of this ahead of time about this about this, I surely would have acted. For instance, he was invited to various events in the Church, life of the Church, that I attended with. If I had known that he was abusing people, either adults or children, I surely would have acted on it. That’s the way I have always done things.
So I think that – I think that it’s – but, you know, somebody told me something very interesting. They said, you know, there’s this business of grooming victims by predators. They kind of get them in a position. But the psychologist told me there’s also grooming of people around him or her, so that they are put in such a position that they can never, ever believe that something like that is true.
But you have that in your own industry. You have people who have been news anchors and heads of communications systems who have for years abused people and they have created this atmosphere that nobody would ever believe any rumor and so nobody acted on it. So I think that it is part of the illness, but also part of the clever tactics of abusers to build that scenario around themselves.
Video 3:
NBC: When did you become aware of the McCarrick allegations?
Cupich: Well after- right when, uh – right when the decision, I think I had a few days ahead of time that it was going to be announced, that it was going to be announced. And that’s – at the time, at the time that when the decision was made by the Holy See that to have him not only removed from public life as a cleric, but also to make it public, I was told that.
NBC: So, because of Archbishop Vigano’s claims that McCarrick had lobbied for you.
Cupich: Yeah.
NBC: I know you responded by a statement, but what do you say to that?
Cupich: Well, I would say – first of all – I’ve been appointed by three popes. Not just by Francis. I was appointed in 1998 by John Paul II, 2010 by Benedict XVI. It’s not as though I just fell out of the sky.
I worked at the Vatican embassy in the ‘80s, I was the rector of the pontifical seminary, the only pontifical seminary in the United States, so it’s not as though I was a newcomer. People knew me in Rome, and so on. I don’t think that I needed one person to be my advocate and I believe that- I believe that the pope wanted someone who was pastoral, as he said, and I was a candidate that he looked at seriously.
NBC: Were you involved in choosing Cardinal McCarrick for the Catholic Extension St. Francis Award?
Cupich: Yeah, I was consulted about that and I agreed to it and, in fact, had I known any of this I surely wouldn’t have. I think that’s a good indication that I didn’t have prior knowledge. I surely wouldn’t choose somebody that had that kind of record behind them and, and yes I was.
NBC: So those allegations, then, did not – they weren’t common knowledge, as some have suggested.
Cupich: No, they were not to me. I mean, if they were common knowledge, I don’t know who had that information. Maybe on the East Coast, where he was, on a day-to-day basis, but I surely did not know that. And I wouldn’t be so stupid and foolish as to allow him to be recognized by Catholic Extension, which does enormously good work, and have their reputation threatened if I knew this information about him.
Video 4:
NBC: Is this the Catholic Church’s #MeToo scandal with adult clergy in positions of power not just abusing children but adults like seminarians who are subordinate to them?
Cupich: Right. Mary Ann, you are hitting the nail on the head, because this is not about sex. It’s about power and clericalism. That’s what has to change in the life of the Church, and that’s what the pope is talking about.
But let’s also be clear that people who want to make this about sex, in terms of homosexuality and all the rest of it, are a diversion from the real issue that we need to attack in the life of the Church. And that is that there are some people who believe that they are both privileged and protected. That has- that wall has to come down.
Any institution, like the Church or other larger institution, that have that kind of insular protection for their members, always gets in trouble. I have told other people that I’ve talked to, who have asked me to come to talk about the issue from their own perspective of kind of a lay clerical culture in their industries, is that if you circle the wagons when you have an issue, you’re gonna end up circling the drain. And that’s what’s happening.
Video 5:
NBC: Is there a Catholic civil war underway? I mean, today you would think the headlines are so-
Cupich: Well, I would say, I would say not a civil war. There’s a small group of insurgents, who have not liked Pope Francis from the very beginning.
They don’t like the fact that he’s calling for more lay involvement. They don’t like the fact that he is calling for a synodal Church, where we get the advice of people. They don’t like that he’s talking about the environment or the poor or the migrants or that the death penalty is something that we should outlaw. They don’t like the fact that he is saying that economies kill. There are people who don’t like that message. And so there’s an insurgency of people who don’t like that. And, quite frankly, they also don’t like him because he’s a Latino and that he is bringing Latino culture into the life of the Church, which we have been enriched by and I think that that’s part of all of this too.
NBC: When’s your next visit to Rome and do you believe that all of these issues – Archbishop Vigano, Cardinal McCarrick, the grand jury – will this something that will be discussed between you and the pope?
Cupich: I don’t think so. I’ll tell you why, because I know that the president of our conference is going to be going to Rome, as he said, to talk to the pope. He represents our conference. I’m consulted from time to time by our conference leadership and directly by the Holy See and I stand ready to do my part.
But let’s be clear, I think it’s important right now, in view of the letter that was issued today by the president of our conference, that this is not on the pope’s plate to fix. This is on us.
We, as the bishops’ conference of the United States, obviously need to look at what went wrong here and hold each other accountable. So before we give the pope another task to do, let’s look at what we’re supposed to do. What’s on our agenda to fix this? That’s where the failure is.
CNA’s Kate Veik transcribed these interviews.
[…]
Don’t any bishop even suggest that “Black Lives Matter” if they do not come out an defend the lives of defenseless and blameless unborn human persons. For a bishop not to publicly support Archbishop Cordileone’s action is for that bishop to implicitly support the killing of the unborn. No two ways about it.
Because of the craven resistance of so many in the church’s hierarchy, the poseurs of “devout catholics” has proliferated and prosyletized and perjured that church, thereby, eroding the teaching authority manifestly. That the powerful and rich can not pervert truth but we, the commoners, can so easily, has eroded all confidence in this, once, great institution and even prostituted its sanctity. At last, a hero! Archbishop Cordeloni has proclaimed: The Catholic Chuech is not for sale!
It will be interesting to see how exactly how many of our Bishops have a spine. And how many will support church law over political popularity. The real question is, how many of them will actually support what Jesus taught us? AS Jesus once asked his disciples ” Will you also leave me?”
To me the most important opinion or statement or what-have-you will be that of Cardinal Gregory in D.C., and from here there is NO way he can avoid taking a position.
What will it be? My hopes are not high on that, but I’ve been wrong many times before, so one more won’t hurt.
@ Terence McManus: Cardinal Gregory has previously indicated he would not deny Communion to Biden. Suspect he won’t publicly oppose Archbishop Cordelione but won’t support him either. Silence from Gregory, McElroy, Cupich, Tobin, is not unexpected.
Ishpeming – I know Gregory has previously said that he will not deny communion to Biden. My point is this – The fact that Archbishop Cordileone has publicly denied Holy Communion to Pelosi changes things, and so I think there is a lot of pressure on Gregory right now, MUCH more than before.
Sooner or later some reporter HAS to ask him if he is still giving Communion to Biden and those 60 other ‘catholics’ in the Congress.
I think we already know Cardinal Gregory’s position. https://www.catholicworldreport.com/2020/11/24/analysis-archbishop-gregory-says-he-wont-deny-biden-communion-how-will-catholics-respond/
It will be interesting to see if/how the Vatican comments. Prepare to be disappointed.
Recall that earlier this year, Pope Francis welcomed and warmly received Nancy Pelosi at the Vatican, as he did subsequently with Joe Biden. Pope Francis states that abortion is murder but then openly reassures, endorses and praises aggressively pro abortion politicians.
Curious where all the other Brother Bishops are? Why are they quiet on this so critical and vital an issue for Catholics?
There are 260 Catholic bishops in this country. Where are the other bishops who constantly trumpet their support for leftist political causes, laud giving honorary degrees by Notre Dame and other Catholic universities to notorious abortionist politicians, and are photographed wreathed in smiles with abortionist politicians from Clinton, Obama, Ted Kennedy, and Pelosi on down? If further evidence is needed of the corruption and faithlessness of the American hierarchy, this is it.
Is one life as important as the next? How many abortions were performed the day the racist young man took ten lives in Buffalo? We always, and should speak out when violent racism rears its ugly head, but some Bishops act like 60 million abortions are not on an equal footing because they were not born yet. Do they really believe life begins at conception? Then speak out, and speak out loudly. There is a gulf forming. Get on the right side.
Thank you for this pertinent comment. I thought likewise after the shooting in Buffalo, and always think of the babies who have been slaughtered when the Left decries shootings across the country. Mass murders of any kind are abhorrent; most don’t come close to the millions of human lives taken by abortionists who swore an oath to “first do no harm.”
As much as it would bolster the Church’s position against abortion-killing, it’s doubtful that many other bishops will make a statement regarding Archbishop Salvatore Cordileone’s announcement, since NP is ‘not in their neighborhood’. I pray that our current Archbishop will be as brave as our former one, (now Cardinal) Raymond Burke, and publicly support Abp. Cordileone.
We are all “in the same neighborhood” when it comes to supporting life.
Oh don’t worry William. Nancy Pelosi may not live in or visit every diocese in America, but EVERY SINGLE DIOCESE has at least one (if not more) Catholic politicians who are pro-infanticide at the federal or state legislature level. Every US citizen ought to know who their “elected” officials are, regardless of religion, and be in contact with them, ESPECIALLY a Catholic bishop who speaks for the many souls under his care
I’m of two minds on this. While the support of other bishops for Abp. Cordileone’s action is welcome, it’s debatable whether it is useful or even right for a bishop to speak out publicly unless and until he is also ready to back up his words with action.
At least we can identify the pseudo-Catholic bishops and archbishops who have remained silent on this important pro-life support. Shame on the 183 who have not announced public support for Archbishop Cordileone’s restriction on Nancy Pelosi. One hundred and ninety-three bishops and archbishops should be on this list. How will they explain their silence when the time comes?
Perfect opportunity for the USCCB to publicly profess unity of Church teaching. Will they?
Scandalous. And the episcopate wonders why it has no credence. The practical atheists among the citizenry [who account for the largest component the self-proclaimed members of our own Church and the other Christian confessions] don’t know what the episcopate is and the faithful are left to mourn.
Thirty pieces.
Dear Florida Bishops, where are you?
Could the majority of Catholic bishops possibly be more spineless and less inspirational than they already are?
I don’t see how.
It’s not unusual for me to wonder whether our priests and bishops actually even believe what the Church teaches.
If they did, things wouldn’t be the way they are. Our Church wouldn’t treat a million abortions a year as business-as-usual the way we do. The way we have for fifty years now — and counting.
A million children a year in America alone. And scores of millions around the world, supported and sponsored by the American taxpayer.
In fact, if the children killed worldwide over the past half century were added up, they would qualify as one of the ten most populous countries in the world.
And more than a hundred American bishops have nothing to say. Nothing to say.
Nothing to say.
Apparently — incredibly — they think it’s no big deal.
And, meanwhile, half of all Catholics keep voting for blood-ravening, death-dealing Democrats.
Our Lord Jesus Christ deserves so much better than this Church.
“I knew you before I formed you in the womb.”
Do you know that this verse from Jeremiah is also the battle cry of those fighting for LGBTQ+ rights?
Alleluia! The culture warrior bishops! This is a gallery of the same bishops who are disloyal and disrespectful of the Pope by taking the side of the mothballed Archbishop Vigano as he initially lobbed later-debunked accusations against Pope Francis.
Dear Ohio Bishops, where are you?
South Dakota Bishops, WHERE ARE YOU?? Admonishing sinners is the responsibility of every catholic, but especially our church leaders. We need you to lead us in saving souls and lives!!
Where does the Bishop of Saginaw, Michigan stand on this issue?
Also Bisjop Liam Cary of the Diocese of Baker, Oregon: https://dioceseofbaker.org/statement-on-the-letter-of-archbishop-cordileone-to-nancy-pelosi
The abortion debate is a good litmus test for dividing true Catholics from the CINOs…..catholic in name only.
And Archbishops Gomez and Vigneron – Pres. & Vice Pres. of the USCCB? For
me the most disappointing absence is Archbishop Chaput.
Wondering if/when Archbishop Lori (Baltimore), chairman of the USCCB Committee on Pro-Life Activities, will publicly support Abp Cordileone.
Chaput is retired.
Caution: Bishop Tobin of Providence, RI is a practicing Catholic, and his views may offend some people with a 29-cent home-made worldview.
From Bishop Tobin: Rhode Island Catholic leaders need to be in a “state of grace” to receive Communion. “Fully supports statement” to Speaker Pelosi
May 23, 2022 / Nancy Thomas
Excerpts:
The Roman Catholic Bishop of the Diocese of Providence, Bishop Thomas Tobin responded to our request for the church’s guidance to local Catholic politicians about receiving communion if they are pro-abortion in their public platforms.
[later]
Many years ago, Mary Ann Sorrentino, serving as Exective Director of Planned Parenthood of Rhode Island at the time, was “excommunicated” by Bishop Gelineau, head of the Diocese of Providence for her role in support of, advocating for, and facilitating abortions by her position at PPRI.
[later]
RINewsToday asked Bishop Tobin directly what he would like to say in response the Archbishop’s statement and/or to Rhode Island legislators and leaders, as well as the general public. He asked us to contact the Diocese’s Communications Department for the statement they have developed.
Here is Bishop Tobin’s response to Archbishop Cordileone’s statement:
“Archbishop Cordileone has written a thoughtful, well-reasoned and compassionate letter that accurately reflects the teaching and the law of the Church. I fully support the Archbishop’s statement.
Any contacts I’ve had with Catholic leaders in Rhode Island about this issue over the years have been personal, pastoral and confidential, and for now I prefer to maintain that approach.
It is a good moment to recall, however, that all Catholics need to be in union with the Church, spiritually prepared, and in the state of grace, before they presume to approach the Table of the Lord to receive Holy Communion.“
Bishop Cordileone should already make it clear now that he will not celebrate the funeral mass for Pelosi when she dies without having repented.