Young pro-TLM Catholics to Pope Francis: “Can we count on you?”
An international group of young people have coordinated an online video petition to Pope Francis, entitled “Dear Holy Father, Dear Bishops: a plea from young traditional Catholics”.
VATICAN—A YouTube video featuring remarks by numerous young Catholics asks Pope Francis to reconsider the measures put forth in his recent motu proprio Traditionis Custodes (or “Guardians of Tradition”). The recent and controversial document severely limits the use of the Missal of Pope St. Pius V, commonly called “extraordinary form” of the Roman Rite.
Along with an explanatory letter, the motu proprio, was issued last Friday, on July 16th, two days after the Pope returned home from major surgery.
Rumors of restrictions of from Pope Francis in a form of documents such as the one just published had circulated for years, but inquiries to the Holy See Press Office were left unanswered, and evidence of it’s existence was tightly guarded before publishing.
Within his letter, the Roman Pontiff explained that the group of faithful Catholics represented a concerning trend of “division” and his edict was meant to be “unitive”.
Pope Francis stated that the “reason for (his) decision is this: ever more plain in the words and attitudes of many is the close connection between the choice of celebrations according to the liturgical books prior to Vatican Council II and the rejection of the Church and her institutions in the name of what is called the ‘true Church.’ One is dealing here with comportment that contradicts communion and nurtures the divisive tendency.”
His motu proprio stated that the order be enacted immediately (“entering immediately in force”), leaving many bishops to issue statements extending their permissions for worship in Latin to continue, while studying the impact this would have in their diocesan communities.
On Tuesday, Cardinal Joseph Zen, Bishop Emeritus of Hong Kong issued a statement on the papal document, asking Pope Francis, “The problem is not “which rite do people prefer?” but is “why don’t they go to Mass anymore?” The Bishop Emeritus continued, “Isn’t the root of evil that attitude of believing that everything can now be changed? Is it not that attitude of believing that this Council erases all previous ones and that the Tridentine Council (which formed the Latin Mass) is like the dirt accumulated on the “last judgement” of the Sistine Chapel?”
In what appears to be an answer to this question, an international group of young people coordinated the online video petition to Pope Francis, entitled “Dear Holy Father, Dear Bishops: a plea from young traditional Catholics”. In this video, young people—reportedly from Germany, Austria, Croatia, and the United States—speak of the Latin Mass, their faith, and their loyalty to the Church and the Pope.
“We love it (the Latin Mass), because it is the same all over the world—Catholic (universal) in the original sense of the word” states a young woman.
“We do not encourage disagreements that injure the Church,” another smiling young woman replies. “We simply aim at Christian life in Faith, Hope and Love for God and neighbor,” a young man follows.
CWR was provided the email address associated with the group of young people, and inquired into the participants’ background and their support.
“We are likeminded Catholics from all over Europe who decided to do this video spontaneously,” the anonymous group responded. “We had so many contributions coming in from all over the world within 24 hours, that unfortunately we could not even include them all, but it was amazing to see such enthusiasm and love for the Traditional Latin Mass! We certainly hope that maybe Pope Francis will see the video, we addressed him specifically!”
The video was shared by a number of activists attached to various groups impacted by Pope Francis’s edict. One individual, Alexander Tschugguel, is an activist and founder of the St. Boniface Institute, which states that its mission is “to give Catholic laity the possibility to speak out.”
Located in Vienna, Austria, Tschugguel’s institute claims, “We are in contact with many similar groups all over the world which – in true Catholic fashion – are working towards one and the same goal: a restoration of the true faith and of its centuries-old traditions.”
Tschuggel has personally led several attempts to communicate with Pope Francis during the last two years. Although Pope Francis has met with many similar groups of young people throughout his papacy—including Caris International, or more recently, a large group of Italian youths representing Caritas, he has not met with groups like Tschuggel’s.
After Tschuggel had posted the video online, I contacted Tschuggel to see if he or his Institute had been involved in the creation or coordination of the online response by young people—particularly, as youth involved were German and Austrian, and Tschuggel’s Institute has engaged in similar events.
Tschuggel responded on a Facebook thread, stating that he “knew about” the coordinated video, but said he was not the coordinator. He was unwilling to provide additional comment.
CWR has requested a response from the Holy See, and will update if a response is received.
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Bree A. Dail is a veteran Naval Surface Warfare Officer, and holds a Masters of Diplomacy from Norwich University and a BA from Christendom College. As an Internationally accredited journalist, she has published numerous articles and media content on military affairs, public policy and the Catholic Church. She works as consultant for a major defense contractor, and is the International Coordinator for Rosary Coast to Coast and the Holy League of Nations. Visit her online at BreeADail.com and on Twitter @breeadail.
Ryan Realbuto, who enjoyed his time with Capuchin Franciscan Volunteer Corps, is remembered for his good heart. () / Credit: Photo courtesy of the Realbuto family
National Catholic Register, Jan 24, 2024 / 13:00 pm (CNA).
Volunteering to help p… […]
Maureen McKinley milks one of her family’s goats in their backyard with help from three of her children, Madeline (behind), Fiona and Augustine on Monday, Aug. 2, 2021. McKinley and her family own two goats, chickens, a rabbit, and a dog. / Jake Kelly
Denver Newsroom, Aug 10, 2021 / 16:32 pm (CNA).
With five children ages 10 and under to care for, and a pair of goats, a rabbit, chickens and a dog to tend to, Maureen and Matt McKinley rely on a structured routine to keep their busy lives on track.
Chores, nap times, scheduled story hours – they’re all important staples of their day. But the center of the McKinleys’ routine, what focuses their family life and strengthens their Catholic faith, they say, is the Traditional Latin Mass.
Its beauty, reverence, and timelessness connect them to a rich liturgical legacy that dates back centuries.
“This is the Mass that made so many saints throughout time,” observes Maureen, 36, a parishioner at Mater Misericordiæ Catholic Church in Phoenix.
“You know what Mass St. Alphonsus Ligouri, St. Therese, St. Teresa of Avila and St. Augustine were attending? The Traditional Latin Mass,” Maureen says.
“We could have a conversation about it, and we would have all experienced the exact same thing,” she says. “That’s exciting.”
Recent developments in the Catholic Church, however, have curbed some of that excitement. On July 16, Pope Francis released a motu proprio titled Traditiones custodis, or “Guardians of the Tradition”, that has cast doubt on the future of the Traditional Latin Mass (TLM) – and deeply upset and confused many of its devotees.
Pope Francis’ directive rescinds the freedom Pope Benedict XVI granted to priests 14 years ago to say Masses using the Roman Missal of 1962, the form of liturgy prior to Vatican II, without first seeking their bishop’s approval. Under the new rules, bishops now have the “exclusive competence” to decide where, when, and whether the TLM can be said in their dioceses.
In a letter accompanying the motu proprio, Pope Francis maintains that the faculties granted to priests by his predecessor have been “exploited to widen the gaps, reinforce the divergences, and encourage disagreements that injure the Church, block her path, and expose her to the peril of division.”
Using the word “unity” a total of 15 times in the accompanying letter, the pope suggests that attending the TLM is anything but unifying, going so far as to correlate a strong personal preference for such masses with a rejection of Vatican II.
Weeks later, many admirers of the “extraordinary” form of the Roman rite – the McKinleys among them – are still struggling to wrap their minds and hearts around the pope’s order, and the pointed tone he used to deliver it.
Maureen McKinley says she had never considered herself a “traditionalist Catholic” before. Instead, she says she and her husband have just “always moved toward the most reverent way to worship and the best way to teach our children.”
“It didn’t feel like I became a particular type of Catholic by going to Mater Misericordiæ. But since the motu proprio came out, I feel like I have been categorized, like I was something different, something other than the rest of the Church,” she says.
“It feels like our Holy Father doesn’t understand this whole group of people who love our Lord so much.”
McKinley isn’t alone in feeling this way. Sadness, anger, frustration, and disbelief are some common themes in conversations among those who regularly attend the TLM.
They want to understand and support the Holy Father, but they also see the restriction as unnecessary, especially when plenty of other more pressing issues in the Church abound.
Eric Matthews, another Mater Misericordiæ parishioner, views the new restrictions as an “attack on devout Catholic culture,” citing the beauty that exists across the rites recognized within the Church. There are seven rites recognized in the Catholic Church: Latin, Byzantine, Alexandrian or Coptic, Syriac, Armenian, Maronite, and Chaldean.
“It’s the same Mass,” says Matthews, 39, who first discovered the TLM about eight years ago. “It’s just different languages, different cultures, but the people that you have there are there for the right reasons.”
Eric and Geneva Matthews with their four children. / Narissa Lowicki
Different paths to the TLM
The pope’s motu proprio directly affects a tiny fraction of U.S. Catholics – perhaps as few as 150,000, or less than 1 percent of some 21 million regular Mass-goers, according to some estimates. According to one crowd-sourced database, only about 700 venues – compared to over 16,700 parishes nationwide – offer the TLM.
Also, since the motu proprio’s release July 16, only a handful of bishops have stopped the TLM in their dioceses. Of those bishops who have made public responses, most are allowing the Masses to continue as before – in some cases because they see no evidence of disunity, and in others because they need more time to study the issue.
But for those who feel drawn to the TLM – for differing reasons that have nothing to do with a rejection of Vatican II – it feels as if the ground has shifted under their feet.
Maureen McKinley wants her children to understand the importance of hard work, of which they have no shortage when it comes to their urban farm. After morning prayer, Maureen milks the family’s goats with the help of the children. Madeline (age 10) feeds the bunny; Augustine (7) exercises the dog; John (6) checks for eggs from the chickens; and Michael (4) helps anyone he chooses.
With a noisy clatter in the kitchen, the McKinleys eat breakfast, tidy up their rooms, and begin their daily activities. They break at 11 a.m. to head to daily Mass at Mater Misericordiæ, an apostolate of the Priestly Fraternity of Saint Peter (FSSP), where they first attended two years ago.
Matt, 34, wanted to know how the early Christians worshipped.
“The funny thing about converts is they’re always wanting more,” says Maureen, who was, at first, a little resistant to the idea of attending the TLM because she didn’t know Latin. “Worship was a big part of his conversion.”
Maureen agreed to follow her husband’s lead, and they continued to attend the TLM. What kept them coming back week after week was the reverence for the Eucharist.
“Matt had a really hard time watching so many people receive communion in the hand at the other parish,” says Maureen. “He says he didn’t want our kids to think that that was the standard. That’s the exception to the rule, not the rule.”
Reverence in worship also drew Elizabeth Sisk to the TLM. A 28-year-old post-anesthesia care unit nurse, she attends both the Novus Ordo, the Mass promulgated by St. Paul VI in 1969, and the extraordinary form in Raleigh, North Carolina, where her parish, the Holy Name of Jesus Cathedral, offers the TLM on the first Sunday of the month.
Sisk has noticed recently that more people in her area — especially young people who are converts to Catholicism — are attending both forms of the Mass. While the Novus Ordo is what brought many of them, herself included, to the faith, she feels that the extraordinary form invites them to go deeper.
“We want to do something radical with our lives,” Sisk says. “To be Catholic right now as a young person is a really radical decision. I think the people who choose to be Catholic right now, we’re all in. We don’t want ‘watered-down’ Catholicism.”
Elizabeth Sisk stands in front of Holy Name of Jesus Cathedral in Raleigh, North Carolina.
With the lack of Christian values in the world today, Sisk desires “something greater,” which she says she can tell is happening in the TLM.
Many TLM parishes saw an increase in attendance during the pandemic, as they were often the only churches open while many others shut their doors or held Masses outside. This struck some as controversial, if not disobedient to the local government. For others, it was a saving grace to have access to the sacraments.
The priests at Erin Hanson’s parish obtained permission from the local bishop to celebrate Mass all day, every day, with 10 parishioners at a time during the height of the COVID pandemic.
“We were being told by the world that church is not necessary,” says Hanson, a 39-year-old mother of three. “Our priest says, ‘No, that’s a lie. Our church is essential. Our salvation is essential. The sacraments are essential.’”
Andy Stevens, 52, came into the Church through the TLM, much to the surprise of his wife, Emma, who had been a practicing Catholic for many years. Andy was “very adamantly not going to become Catholic,” but was happy to help Emma with their children at Mass. It wasn’t until they attended a TLM that Andy began to think differently about the Church.
“He believed that you die and then there is nothing, and he never really spoke to me about becoming a Catholic,” says Emma, 48, who was pregnant with their seventh child at the time.
Andy noticed an intense focus among the worshippers, which he recognized as a “real presence of God” that he didn’t see anywhere else. After the birth of their 7th child, he joined the Church.
All 12 of the Stevens’ children prefer the TLM to the Novus Ordo.
Emma and Andy Stevens with their 12 children in Oxford, England.
“It’s a Mass of the ages,” says their eldest son, Ryan, 27. “I can feel the veil between heaven and earth palpably thinner.”
A native of Chicago, Adriel Gonzalez, 33, remembers attending the TLM as a child, which he did not particularly like. It was “very long, very boring,” and the people who went to the TLM were “very stiff and they could come off as judgmental” towards his family, he says.
Gonzalez, who also attended Mass in Spanish with his family, didn’t understand the differences among rites, since Chicago was a sort of “salad bowl, ethnically,” he says, and Mass was celebrated in many languages and forms.
He took a step back from faith for some time, he says, noting that he had a “respectability issue” with the Christianity he grew up with. He watched as some of his friends were either thoughtless in the way they practiced their faith, or were “on fire,” but lacked intentionality. When he did come back to the faith, it was through learning about the Church’s intellectual tradition.
He spent time in monasteries and Eastern Catholic parishes with the Divine Liturgy because there was “something so obviously ancient about it.” He decided to stay within the Roman rite with a preference for a reverent Novus Ordo.
When he moved to Ann Arbor, Michigan, Gonzalez committed to his neighborhood parish, which had a strong contingent of people who loved tradition in general. The parish instituted a TLM in the fall of 2020, when they started having Mass indoors again after the pandemic.
Hallie and Adriel Gonzalez.
“If I’m at a Latin Mass, I’m more likely to get a sense that this is a time-honored practice, something that has been honed over the millennia,” he says. “There is clearly a love affair going on here with the Lord that requires this much more elaborate song and dance.”
For Eric Matthews, the TLM feels a little like time travel.
“It could be medieval times, it could be the enlightenment period, it could be the early 1900s, and the experience is going to be so similar,” he says.
“I just feel like that’s that universal timeframe – not just the universal Church in 2021 – but the universal Church in almost any time period. We’re the only church that can claim that.”
What happens now?
The motu proprio caught Adriel Gonzalez’ attention. He sought clarity about whether his participation in the extraordinary form was, in fact, part of a divisive movement, or simply an expression of his faith.
If it was a movement, he wanted no part of it, he says.
“As far as I can tell, the Church considers the extraordinary form and the ordinary form equal and valid,” says Gonzalez. “Ideally, there should be no true difference between going to one or the other, outside of just preference. It shouldn’t constitute a completely different reality within Catholicism.”
With this understanding, Gonzalez says he resonated with some of the reasoning set forth in the motu proprio because it articulated that the celebration of the TLM was never intended to be a movement away from the Novus Ordo or Vatican II. Gonzalez also emphasized that the extraordinary form was never supposed to be a “superior” way of celebrating the Mass.
Gonzalez believes the Lord allowed the growth in the TLM “to help us to recover a love for liturgy, and to ask questions about what worship and liturgy looks like.” He would have preferred if what was good was kept and encouraged, and what was potentially dangerous “coaxed out and called out.”
Mater Misericordæ Catholic Church in Phoenix, Arizona. / Viet Truong
Erin Hanson, of Mater Misericordiæ, agrees.
“If [Pope Francis] does believe there is division between Novus Ordo and traditional Catholics, I don’t think he did anything to try to fix that division,” she says.
Hanson would like to know who the bishops are that Pope Francis consulted in making this decision, sharing that she doesn’t feel that there is any of the transparency needed for such a major document. If there are divisions, she says, she would like the opportunity to work on them in a different way.
“This isn’t going to be any less divisive if he causes a possible schism,” Hanson says.
According to the motu proprio and the accompanying letter, the TLM is not to be celebrated in diocesan churches or in new churches constructed for the purpose of the TLM, nor should new groups be established by the bishops. Left out of their parish churches, some are worried their only option to attend Mass will be in a recreation center or hotel ballroom.
Eric Matthews hopes that everyone is able to experience the extraordinary form at least once in their life so they can know that this is not about division.
“I can’t imagine someone going to the Latin Mass and saying, ‘This is creating disunity,’” he says. “There’s nothing to be afraid of with the Latin Mass. You’re just going to be surrounding yourself with people that really take it to heart.”
Maureen McKinley was home sick when her husband Matt found out about the motu proprio. He had taken the kids to a neighborhood park, where he ran into some friends who also attend Mater Misericordiæ. They asked if he had heard the news.
“I felt disgust at a document that pretends to say so much while actually saying so little and disregards the Church’s very long and rich tradition of careful legal documents,” Matt McKinley says.
Bishop Thomas Olmsted of Phoenix stated that the TLM may continue at Mater Misericordiæ, as well as in chapels, oratories, mission churches, non-parochial churches, and at seven other parishes in the diocese. Participation in the TLM and all of the activities of the parish are so important to the McKinleys that they are willing to move to another state or city should further restrictions be implemented.
For now, their family’s routine continues the same as before.
At the end of their day, the McKinleys pray a family rosary in front of their home altar, which has a Bible at the center, and an icon of Christ and a statue of the Virgin Mary. They eat dinner together, milk the goat again, and take care of their evening animal chores. After night prayer, the kids head off to bed, blessing themselves with holy water from the fonts mounted on the wall before they enter their bedroom.
“The life of the Church springs from this Mass,” Maureen says. “That’s why we’re here—not because the Latin Mass is archaic, but that it’s actually just so alive.”
Let’s do an Occam’s Razor on this new Motu Proprio. It seems pretty simple to me: A number of bishops wanted the tools to restrict celebration of the Traditional Latin Mass (TLM), and Pope Francis […]
18 Comments
Obviously scripted propaganda. Thank goodness an attempt to go viral won’t have the desired effect.
It is clear that you have never attended a Traditional Latin Mass in America or Europe. If you had, you would know that this is anything but propaganda. This is a youth movement. At 63 years old, I feel somewhat out of place at the TLM in my parish, where the overwhelming majority of worshippers are youth and young families. It does not matter what “effect” this video has in Rome. The demographics of birth rates and vocations are clear. Pope Francis represents the dying generation of liturgical revolutionaries. For most Catholics 50 years from now, it will be harder to find a Novus Ordo celebrated by a priest than a Traditional Latin Mass.
Timothy,
You are correct. I attend Mass (Anglican/Catholic) with the Ordinariate of the Chair of St Peter and it is overflowing with young families along with a few old pirates like myself. Very similar to the Traditional Latin Mass with the priest Ad Orientem and Holy Communion given on the tongue by the priest while we kneel. Hooray for the Young People in this video!
Carl King, Am I correct in understanding that you are pessimistic about the great contribution the young people are making? I pray that the Holy Ghost gives them all the necessary graces to re-educate Francis and his Modernist ghouls.
This letter from Francis regarding the Latin mass is not surprising in light of a Pope who willingly has turned a blind eye on the priests in Germany who openly blessed same-sex marriages after the Vatican statement stating that marriage is between a man and a woman the Church will not bless same-sex marriages. Because of Francis’ opinion on this matter, the pastors of two parishes near me (including the one I was attending) blatantly published statements to the effect that they do not agree with the Vatican statement regarding marriage and will bless same-sex marriages because “love is love”. Francis does not respond directly to criticism, but strikes out at those who oppose his personal opinions in this kind of cowardly manner, using his authority as Pope to try to curb the faithful from disagreeing with him. I’m thankful for the American bishops who are keeping the Latin mass going.
Unfortunately, the answer to their question, “Can we count on you?” is no doubt NO. If anything, this will likely make Francis very, very angry. In the past, he has gone out of his way to deride and insult such young people as “rigid,” “dogmatic,” etc. etc. At the same time, I can’t imagine that they and others like them will simply acquiesce, either.
Let me come straight to the point – I’m an old pro-TLM Catholic. Your recent motu proprio concerning the Latin mass is divisive, and, I hope, will serve to bring MORE people to the TLM.
If you are wondering why the Novus Ordo form of the Mass is losing popularity I would respectfully ask you this – Have you ever had to go to a guitar Mass where a mediocre guitarist with a mediocre voice is singing mediocre songs – aka those written mostly within the last 50 years?
One of the many good things about the TLM is the silence. One of the many bad things about the Novus Ordo is the lack of silence, which is to be avoided like the plague.
What has been Holy for thousands of years is suddenly wrong in the eyes of the Pope. He has clearly been manipulated after he has come out of the hospital, into signing this document.
What these young people are doing will bear much fruit. But they will come to understand that the man Francis they are dealing with never fixes nor apologizes for what he destroys. Just look at the Franciscans of the Immaculate.
The SSPX has responded to Francis. It is a great response. They do not fear to speak the truth. Everyone else must be careful about what they say. They fear Francis’s mercy.
Obviously scripted propaganda. Thank goodness an attempt to go viral won’t have the desired effect.
Very informative indeed. I learned a lot from this comment!
It is clear that you have never attended a Traditional Latin Mass in America or Europe. If you had, you would know that this is anything but propaganda. This is a youth movement. At 63 years old, I feel somewhat out of place at the TLM in my parish, where the overwhelming majority of worshippers are youth and young families. It does not matter what “effect” this video has in Rome. The demographics of birth rates and vocations are clear. Pope Francis represents the dying generation of liturgical revolutionaries. For most Catholics 50 years from now, it will be harder to find a Novus Ordo celebrated by a priest than a Traditional Latin Mass.
Timothy,
You are correct. I attend Mass (Anglican/Catholic) with the Ordinariate of the Chair of St Peter and it is overflowing with young families along with a few old pirates like myself. Very similar to the Traditional Latin Mass with the priest Ad Orientem and Holy Communion given on the tongue by the priest while we kneel. Hooray for the Young People in this video!
Yes! The Traditional Latin Mass is holiest and most efficacious.
Wut? Your kidding right?
I’m beginning to think that we can “count on you,” Carl, for snarky, sneering comments like this one.
Carl King, Am I correct in understanding that you are pessimistic about the great contribution the young people are making? I pray that the Holy Ghost gives them all the necessary graces to re-educate Francis and his Modernist ghouls.
Carl King – Huh?
This letter from Francis regarding the Latin mass is not surprising in light of a Pope who willingly has turned a blind eye on the priests in Germany who openly blessed same-sex marriages after the Vatican statement stating that marriage is between a man and a woman the Church will not bless same-sex marriages. Because of Francis’ opinion on this matter, the pastors of two parishes near me (including the one I was attending) blatantly published statements to the effect that they do not agree with the Vatican statement regarding marriage and will bless same-sex marriages because “love is love”. Francis does not respond directly to criticism, but strikes out at those who oppose his personal opinions in this kind of cowardly manner, using his authority as Pope to try to curb the faithful from disagreeing with him. I’m thankful for the American bishops who are keeping the Latin mass going.
Perennial Catholic teaching: a heretic can’t become Pope.
We are in great apostasy.
Catholic church is Spotless Bride of Christ, currently in eclipse.
Blown from the face of the earth… almost.
I am sedevacantist.
Catholic laity in Austin TX mass: Brownsville, San Antonio, Austin, Coperas Cove.
Priest…. Cincinnati
Unfortunately, the answer to their question, “Can we count on you?” is no doubt NO. If anything, this will likely make Francis very, very angry. In the past, he has gone out of his way to deride and insult such young people as “rigid,” “dogmatic,” etc. etc. At the same time, I can’t imagine that they and others like them will simply acquiesce, either.
Dear Holy Father;
Let me come straight to the point – I’m an old pro-TLM Catholic. Your recent motu proprio concerning the Latin mass is divisive, and, I hope, will serve to bring MORE people to the TLM.
If you are wondering why the Novus Ordo form of the Mass is losing popularity I would respectfully ask you this – Have you ever had to go to a guitar Mass where a mediocre guitarist with a mediocre voice is singing mediocre songs – aka those written mostly within the last 50 years?
One of the many good things about the TLM is the silence. One of the many bad things about the Novus Ordo is the lack of silence, which is to be avoided like the plague.
I suppose the young Catholics can count on Pope Francis as much as the dubia cardinals could count on him.
What has been Holy for thousands of years is suddenly wrong in the eyes of the Pope. He has clearly been manipulated after he has come out of the hospital, into signing this document.
What these young people are doing will bear much fruit. But they will come to understand that the man Francis they are dealing with never fixes nor apologizes for what he destroys. Just look at the Franciscans of the Immaculate.
The SSPX has responded to Francis. It is a great response. They do not fear to speak the truth. Everyone else must be careful about what they say. They fear Francis’s mercy.
Francis hears you… he just doesn’t care. Face it, we’re living through the Third Secret.