Aboard the papal plane, Sep 11, 2017 / 10:10 am (CNA/EWTN News).- In his conversation with journalists on the return flight from Cartagena to Rome on Monday, Pope Francis touched on a variety of topics, notably the US government’s decision to end DACA and the crisis in Venezuela.
He also touched on the peace process in Colombia, Hurricane Irma, climate change, and migration during his Sept. 11 flight.
Please find below CNA’s full transcript of the Pope’s in-flight press conference.
Greg Burke: Thank you, Holy Father, for the time you are dedicating to us today after an intense, tiring trip; very tiring for some, but also a very fruitful trip. On several occasions you thanked the people for what they taught you. We also learn many things in this culture of encounter and we thank you for it.
Colombia in particular, with its recent past, and not only recent, offered us some strong testimonies, some emotional testimonies of forgiveness and reconciliation. But it also offered us a continuous lesson of joy and hope, two words that you used a lot in this trip. Now perhaps you want to say something, and then we can go to the questions. Thank you.
Pope Francis: Good afternoon and thank you very much for your work. I am moved by the joy, the tenderness, the youth and the goodness of the Colombian people. A noble people that isn’t afraid to express how they feel, isn’t afraid to listen and to make seen how they feel. This is how I perceive it. This is the third time I remember [that I have been in Colombia] – but there is a bishop who told me: no, you have been a fourth time – but only for small meetings. One time in Laceja and the other two in Bogota, or three, but, I did not know Colombia well, what you see on the streets. Well, I appreciate the testimony of joy, of hope, of patience in suffering of this people. It did me a lot of good. Thank you.
Greg Burke: Okay, Holy Father. The first question is from César Moreno of Radio Caracol.
Moreno: Thank you, Your Holiness. Good evening. First of all, I would like to thank you on behalf of all the Colombian media that are accompanying us here on this trip, and all of the colleagues and friends for having come to our country, for having given us so many beautiful, profound and affectionate messages, and for such closeness that you demonstrated to the Colombian people. Thank you, Your Holiness.
You arrived, Holy Father, to a divided country. Divided on account of a peace process, between those who accept and those who don’t accept this process. What concretely can be done, what steps can be taken, so that the divided parts grow closer, so that our leaders stop this hate, this grudge? If Your Holiness returns, if you could return to our country in a few years, what do you think, how would you like to see Colombia? Thank you.
Pope Francis: I would like the motto to at least be: “Let us take the second step.” That at least it is this. I thought that there were more. I counted 60, but they told me 54 years of the guerrillas, more or less. And here it accumulates a lot, a lot. A lot of hatred, a lot of resentment, a lot of sickness in the soul. And the sickness isn’t to blame. It comes. The measles grabs and drags you…oh, sorry! I’ll speak in Italian. The sickness is not something to blame, it comes. And in these guerrilla wars – that they really waged, whether they were guerrillas, paramilitaries, or others – and also the corruption in the country, they committed gross sins that lead to this disease of hatred, of…But if they have taken steps that give hope, steps in negotiation, but it has been the last. The ELN ceasefire, and I am very grateful for it, very grateful for this. But there is something else that I perceived. The desire to go forward in this process goes beyond negotiations that they are being done or should be done. It is a spontaneous desire, and this is the strength of the people. This people wants to breathe, but we must help them with the closeness of prayer, and above all with the understanding of how much pain there is inside so many people.
Greg Burke: Now Holy Father, José Mojica, from El Tiempo.
José Mojica: Holy Father, it’s an honor to be here, to be here with you. My name is José Mojica and I am a journalist for El Tiempo, the editorial home of Colombia, and I also greet you in the name of my Colombian colleagues and all communications media in my country.
Colombia has suffered many decades of violence due to the war, the armed conflict and also drug trafficking. However, the ravages of corruption in politics have been just as damaging as the war itself, and although corruption is not new, we have always known that it exists, now it’s more visible because we no longer have news of the war and the armed conflict. What can we do in front of this scourge, up to what point can we stand the corrupt, how do we punish them? And finally, should the corrupt be excommunicated?
Pope Francis: You ask me a question I have asked myself many times. I put it to myself in this way: do the corrupt have forgiveness? I asked myself like this. And I asked myself when there was an act of…in the province of Catamarca, in Argentina, an act of mistreatment, abuse, the rape of a girl. And there were people stuck there, very attached to political and economic powers in this province.
An article published in La Nacion at that time moved me a lot, and I wrote a small book which is called “Sin and Corruption.” …always we are all sinners, and we know that the Lord is close to us, that he never tires of forgiving. But the difference: God never tires of forgiving, the sinner sometimes wakes up and asks for forgiveness. The problem is that the corrupt get tired of asking for forgiveness and forget how to ask for forgiveness, and this is the serious problem. It’s a state of insensitivity before values, before destruction, before the exploitation of people. They are not able to ask forgiveness, it’s like a condemnation, so it’s very hard to help the corrupt, very hard. But God can do it. I pray for that.
Greg Burke: Holy Father, now Hernan Reyes, from TELAM.
Hernán Reyes: Holiness, the question is from the Spanish language group of journalists. You spoke of this first step that Colombia has made. Today at the Mass, you said that there hasn’t been enough dialogue between the two parts, but was it necessary to incorporate more actors. Do you think it’s possible to replicate this Colombia model in other conflicts in the world?
Pope Francis: Integrating other people. Also today in the homily I spoke of this, taking a passage from the Gospel. Integrating other people. It’s not the first time, in so many conflicts many people have been involved. It’s a way of moving ahead, a sapiential way of politics. There is the wisdom of asking for help, but I believe that today I wished to note it in the homily – which is a message, more than a homily – I think that these technical, let’s say ‘political’, resources help and interventions of the United Nations are sometimes requested to get out of the crisis. But a peace process will go forward only when the people take it in their hands. If the people don’t take it in hand, it can go a bit forward, they arrive at a compromise. It is what I have tried to make heard during this visit: the protagonist of the peace process either is the people or it arrives to a certain point, but when the people take it in hand, they are capable of doing it well… that is the higher road.
Greg Burke: Now, Elena Pinardi.
Elena Pinardi (EBU): Good evening, Holiness. First of all, we would like to ask how you are doing. We saw that you hit your head… how are you? Did you hurt yourself?
Pope Francis: I turned there to greet children and I didn’t see the glass and boom!
Pinardi: The question is this: while we were flying, we passed close to Hurricane Irma, which after causing … deaths and massive damage in the Caribbean islands and Cuba, it’s feared that broad areas of Florida could end up underwater, and 6 million people have had to leave their homes. After Hurricane Harvey, there have been almost simultaneously three hurricanes in the area. Scientists say that the warming of the oceans is a factor that contributes to making the storms and seasonal hurricanes more intense. Is there a moral responsibility for political leaders who reject collaborating with the other nations to control the emission of greenhouse gas? Why do they deny that climate change is also be the work of man?
Pope Francis: Thanks. For the last part, to not forget, whoever denies this should go to the scientists and ask them. They speak very clearly. The scientists are precise. The other day, when the news of that Russian boat came out, I believe, that went from Norway to Japan or Taipei by way of the North Pole without an icebreaker and the photographs showed pieces of ice. To the North Pole, you could go. It’s very, very clear. When that news came from a university, I don’t remember from where, another came out that said, ‘We only have three years to turn back, otherwise the consequences will be terrible.’ I don’t know if three years is true or not, but if we don’t turn back we’re going down, that’s true. Climate change, you see the effects and scientists say clearly which is the path to follow. And all of us have a responsibility, all… everyone… a little one, a big one, a moral responsibility, and to accept from the opinion or make decisions, and we have to take it seriously. I think it’s something that’s not to joke around with. It’s very serious. And you ask me: what is the moral responsibility. Everyone has his. Politicians have their own. Everyone has their own according to the response he gives.
I would say: everyone has their own moral responsibility, first. Second, if one is a bit doubtful that this is not so true, let them ask the scientists. They are very clear. They are not opinions on the air, they are very clear. And then let them decide, and history will judge their decisions. Thanks.
Enzo Romeo (TG2): Good afternoon, Holy Father. I unite myself to the question my colleague made earlier because you frequently in the speeches you gave in Colombia, called again, in some way, to make peace with creation. Respecting the environment as a necessary condition so that a stable social peace may be created. The effects of climate change, here in Italy – I don’t know if you’ve been informed – has caused many deaths in Livorno…
Pope Francis: After three-and-a-half months of drought.
Romeo: … much damage in Rome. We are all concerned by this situation. Why is there a delay in taking awareness, especially by governments, that nevertheless appear to be solicitous perhaps in other areas, for example, in arms trade? We are seeing the crisis in Korea, also about this I would like to have your opinion.
Pope Francis: Why? A phrase comes to me from the Old Testament, I believe from the Psalm: Man is stupid. He is stubborn one who does not see, the only animal of creation that puts his leg in the same hole is man… the horse, no, they don’t do it… There is arrogance, the sufficiency of “it’s not like that,” and then there is the “pocket” God, not only about creation, so many decisions, so many contradictions (…) depend on money. Today, in Cartagena, I started in a part, let’s call it poor, of Cartagena. The other part, the touristic side, luxury, luxury without moral measure… but those who go there don’t realize this, or the socio-political analysts don’t realize… ‘man is stupid,’ the Bible said. It’s like that: when you don’t want to see, you don’t see. You just look in another direction. And of North Korea, I’ll tell the truth, I don’t understand. Truly, I don’t understand that world of geopolitics. It’s very tough for me. But I believe that what I see, there is a struggle of interests that don’t escape me, I truly can’t explain… but the other important thing: we don’t take awareness. Think to Cartagena today. Is this unjust. Can we take awareness? This is what comes to me. Thanks.
Valentina Alazraki, Noticieros Televisa: I’m sorry. Holy Father, every time you meet with youth in any part of the world you always tell them: ‘Don’t let yourselves be robbed of hope, don’t let yourselves be robbed of the future.’ Unfortunately, in the United States they have abolished the law of the “dreamers.” They speak of 800,000 youth: Mexicans, Colombians, from many countries. Do you think that with the abolition of this law the youth lose joy, hope and their future? And, after, abusing your kindness, could you make a small prayer, a small thought, for all the victims of the earthquake in Mexico and of Hurricane Irma? Thank you.
Pope Francis: I have heard of this law. I have not been able to read the articles, how the decision was made. I don’t know it well. Keeping young people away from family is not something that brings good fruit. Every young person has their family. I think that this law, which I think comes not from parliament [sic], but from the executive, if this is the case, which I am not sure, I hope that it will be rethought a little, because I have heard the President of the United States speak as a pro-life man. If he is a good pro-life man, he understands that the family is the cradle of life, and unity must be defended. This is what comes to me. That’s why I’m interested in studying the law well.
Truly, when youth feel, in general, whether in this case or another, exploited, in the end they feel that they have no hope. And who steals it from them? Drugs, other dependencies, suicide…youth suicide is very strong and comes when they are taken out from their roots. Uprooted young people today ask for help, and this is why I insist so much on dialogue between the elderly and the youth. That they talk to their parents, but (also) the elderly. Because the roots are there…[inaudible] to avoid the conflicts that can happen with the nearest roots, with the parents. But today’s youth need to rediscover their roots. Anything that goes against the root robs them of hope. I don’t know if I answered, more or less.
Alazraki: They can be deported from the United States…
Pope Francis: Eh, yes, the lose a root. But truthfully, on this law I don’t want to express myself, because I have not read it and I don’t like to talk about something I don’t understand.
And then, Valentina is Mexican, and Mexico has suffered a lot. I ask everyone for solidarity with the dean (Editor’s note: a reference to the journalist, who is a veteran reporter and on friendly terms with the Pope) and a prayer for the country. Thank you.
Greg Burke: Thank you, Holy Father. Now, Fausto Gasparroni from ANSA.
Fausto Gasparroni: Holiness, in the name of the Italian group, I’d like to pose you a question about the issue of immigrants, particularly about what the Italian Church has recently expressed, let’s say, a sort of comprehension about the new policy of the government of restricting the exit from Libya in boats. It has been written also that about this you had a meeting with the President of the Council, Gentiloni. We’d like to know if effectively in this meeting this topic was spoken about and especially what you think of this policy of closing the exits, considering also the fact that after the immigrants that stay in Libya, as has also been documented by investigations, live in inhuman conditions, in very, very precarious conditions. Thanks.
Pope Francis: The meeting with Minister Gentiloni was a personal meeting and not about that topic. It was before this issue, which came out later, some weeks later. Almost a month later. (It was) before this issue. Secondly, I feel the duty and gratitude toward Italy and Greece because they opened their hearts to immigrants, but it’s not enough to open the heart. The problem of the immigrant is: first an ever open heart, it’s also a commandment of God, no? “Receive them, because you have been a slave in Egypt.” But a government must manage that problem with the virtue proper of a governor: prudence. What does that mean? First: How many places do I have? Second: Not only to receive… (but to) integrate, integrate. I’ve seen examples, here in Italy, of precious integrations. I went to Roma Tre University and three students asked me questions. One was the last one. I looked at her and said, “I know that face.” It was one who, less than a year earlier, had come from Lesbos with me in the plane. She learned the language, is studying biology. They validated her classes and she continued. She learned the language. This is called integrating. On another flight, I think when we were coming back from Sweden, I spoke about the policy of integration of Sweden as a model. But also Sweden said prudently: this number I cannot do. Because there exists the danger of no integration. Third: it’s a humanitarian issue. Humanity takes awareness of these concentration camps, the conditions, the desert… I’ve seen photographs. First of the exploiters. The Italian government gives me the impression that it is doing everything, in humanitarian work, to resolve the problem that it cannot assume. Heart always open, prudence, integration, humanitarian closeness.
And there is a final thing that I want to say, above all for Africa There is a motto, a principle in our collective consciousness: Africa must be exploited. Today in Cartagena we saw an example of human exploitation, in any case. A chief of government said a truth about this: those who flee from war are another problem, but there are many who flee from hunger. Let us invest there so that it may grow, but in the collective consciousness there is the issue that when the developed nations go to Africa it’s to exploit it.
Africa is a friend and must be helped to grow. Today, other problems of war go in another direction. I don’t know if I clarified with this.
Xavier Le Normand (iMedia): Holy Father, today you spoke in the Angelus, you asked that all kinds of violence in political life be rejected. Thursday, after Mass in Bogota, you greeted five Venezuelan bishops. We all know that the Holy See is very committed to a dialogue with this country. For many months you have asked for an end to all violence. But President Maduro, on one hand, has many violent words against the bishops, and on the other hand says that he is with Pope Francis. Would it not be possible to have stronger and perhaps clearer words? Thank you.
Pope Francis: I think that the Holy See has spoken strongly and clearly. What President Maduro says, he can explain. I don’t know what he has in his mind, but the Holy See has done a lot, it sent there – with the working group of four ex-presidents there – it has sent a first-level nuncio. After speaking with the people, it spoke publicly. Many times in the Angelus I have spoken about the situation, always looking for an exit, helping, offering help to get out. It seems that it’s a very hard thing, and the most painful is the humanitarian problem, the many people who escape or suffer…we must help to resolve it in anyway (possible). I think the UN must also make itself heard there to help.
Greg Burke: Thank you, Holiness. I think we have to go.
Pope Francis: For the turbulence? They say there is some turbulence and we need to go. Many thanks for your work. And once more I’d like to thank the example of the Colombian people. I would like to conclude with an image. What most struck me about the Colombians in the four cities was the people in the streets, greeting me. What must struck me is that the father, mother, raised up their children to help them see the Pope and so the Pope could bless them, as if saying, ‘This is my treasure, this is my hope. This is my future.’ I believe you. This struck me. The tenderness. The eyes of those fathers, of those mothers. Precious, precious. This is a symbol, a symbol of hope, of future. A people that is capable of having children and then shows them to you, make them see as well, as if saying, ‘This is my treasure,’ is a people that has hope and future. Many thanks.
[…]
Russell addresses the question of nature-or-nurture…
In his own works the novelist Andre Gide wrote vicariously about his struggles in a bisexual double life up until the very end. Did God make him that way? What does Gide have to say?
Gide was opposed to sexual license and favored self-control and “sublimating sexual energy into desirable moral and artistic qualities.” Nevertheless, his biographer concludes that Gide,
“…emphatically protests that he has not a word to say against marriage and reproduction (but then) suggests that it would be of benefit to an adolescent, before his desires are fixed, to have a love affair with an older man, instead of with a woman. . . the general principle admitted by Gide, elsewhere in his treatise, that sexual practice tends to stabilize in the direction where it has first found satisfaction; to inoculate a youth with homosexual tastes seems an odd way to prepare him for matrimony” ( Harold March, Gide and the Hound of Heaven [Philadelphia: University of Pennsylvania Press, 1952], 178).
Better to simply redefine marriage!
I think the BIBLE refers to sodomy as a great sin. Using Verbal Engineering and merely referring to Sodomy as homosexuality seems to lessen or dumb it down to something mild. it is not venial but major and . man has free will and he is not a robot but is clearly able to choose the good or the evil. I think alcohol also may play a major role in numbing or clouding the senses. An alcoholic seems to operate in a distorted fashion and he may lose his will power to resist evil. Nancy Roth, BA Biology MAT Guidance Counselor/Univ. of Norte Dame
Nancy, you may have missed something when trying to define all homosexuals are driven to perform sodomy. Lesbians may not be classified as “intrinsically evil”. An excerpt from this article gives a feel as to how the Catholic Church addresses homosexuality…
“When it shows itself from childhood, there is a lot that can be done through psychiatry, to see how things are. It is something else if it shows itself after 20 years.”
Those words were issued by Pope Francis and reveals that the church holds to the idea that a homosexual can be “converted” in his early years. As Michelle and Marcus Bachmann, who run a “clinic” to “pray the Gay away”.
Then, the beat goes on.
There are former homosexuals and there is emerging scientific evidence to indicate that those with unwanted same-sex attraction can be cured.
http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0024363918788559
https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/ex-gays-californias-stay-gay-bill-denies-our-existence
Q: What do Jake Tapper, DA Shapiro and Archbishop Viganò all have in common?
A: They all agree that Cardinal Wuerl is lying about his coverup of sex abuse in the Church.
See Rod Dreher’s site, story of 6 Sep 2028 with video of Tapper embedded.
Yes it is, a mental illness – to say the least. It is this (not so much, anymore) subtle ‘queering’ of the Church’s doctrine and practice which is (no longer subtlety) whistling me to walk out.
So when did mental illness become a sin?
To have same sex attraction is a mental issue, experience by many people that suffered abused in childhood or terrible relationship with father or mother.
The sin is to act on it to have sex with the same sex person. As it is condemned in the Bible.
Deacon Jim you’ve seen the light. Or does the Pontiff see the light but refuses it? Your analysis is spot on. It’s fundamentally [there are rare exceptions] an acquired and grievous habit. I add grievous since it’s not simply the act, which is always serious sin but the inclination itself that is most often a willful deviation of direction to a due end, that end the attraction to the opposite sex. Dr Gerard van den Aardweg a member of the John Paul II Academy on the Family argues that in his book on Gay Ideology. I agree often there are social psychological conditions that mitigate that responsibility in the inclination. But your point is sterling. That the Pontiff admitted a truth but reneged realizing it opened the door to treatment and conversion. He and his cohort are more inclined to sanitize homosexuality, the highly destructive behavior symptomatic of a general loss of faith.
Father Morello,
Thank you very much for your comment. I would like to understand better how someone becomes homosexual. Can you recommend any additional books? Is “The Homosexual Person” by Fr. Harvey still recommended? I have read that some consider its theories outdated. Thank you.
Ted there is an internet online article posted by The Linacre Quarterly 18 July 2013 On the Psychogenesis of Homosexuality Gerard JM van den Aardweg. The same author Dr Aardweg published a book On the origins and Treatment of Homosexuality 1986.
Father Morello, thank you for this information. I read the article you mentioned and I just ordered
The Battle for Normality: A Guide for (Self-)Therapy for Homosexuality by Gerard J. M. van Den Aardweg. Reading the contents of the book on Amazon website, it seemed to me it is very enlightening and a must read for everyone.In it the doctor writes about the origin(s) of same sex attraction and how to cure it.
If it is not normal and there is no cure, then it seems there is very little the Church can offer.
The Church has EVERYTHING to offer. Conversion. Conversion of life. Conversion to the Gospel. Sex is not the core of our existence. Jesus Christ is the core — the heart — of our existence. While a sexual attraction is not likely to be extinguished, it need not be an obsessive-compulsive reality. Unfortunately that is a characteristic of same-sex attraction for many who shoulder it. Obsessive-compulsive sexual desire is not confined by any means to homosexuals, but it is frequently a dark and burdensome reality for them. That need be addressed by developing a deep life of prayer, assent to the truths of the faith without ambiguity, and very frequent reception of the sacraments. It take time, but a thousand years are but a single day in the eye of God.
The Lord who raised Lazarus from the dead, who gave sight to the man born blind, can and will without doubt support and sustain anyone shouldering same-sex attraction who clings to Him.
Confidence and trust in Christ make all things possible. Self-acceptance — self-contempt is contrary to Christ.
Sept. 7th: Pope Francis spoken before about homosexual actions being filthy – so it’s hard to imagine that he would have initiated the change in the transcript. If he did not and it was done without his permission, then I wonder who is running things at the Vatican. In some cases I do believe he is either misinformed or uninformed – are those in his close circle keeping important information from him. As far as homosexual behavior goes, I never say it’s not normal – I simply say it is not natural. God created male and female bodies to complement each other – to fit; and for procreation – anything outside of that ‘fit’ is not natural.
Why would anyone be surprised? Why would one ask? When an individual is working out of cognitive dissonance attempting to please everyone and accommodating a tradition he must appear to uphold but does not, he’s going to trip up.
Devious. Disoriented. Disingenuous. Disappointing, profoundly.
Perhaps homosexuality has a demonic element. Pedophilia seems to be a sin so severe that grace is withheld and the millstone is attached. Ergo homosexuals can hope and pray for change – pedos? not so much.
With the above citations in mind, consider the following scientific facts about how gender development can go wrong from the womb. These facts have been obtained from the U.S. National Library of Medicine’s medlineplus.gov web site, from the Medical Encyclopedia entry for Intersex which can be read here:
Medical Encyclopedia entry for “Intersex”
The scientific facts:
• A person can be born the chromosomes of a woman, the ovaries of a woman, but external (outside) genitals that appear male.
• A person can be born with the chromosomes of a man, but the external genitals are incompletely formed, ambiguous, or clearly female.
• A person can be born with both ovarian and testicular tissue. This may be in the same gonad (an ovotestis), or the person might have 1 ovary and 1 testis.
• Many chromosome configurations other than simple 46, XX or 46, XY can result in disorders of sex development. These include 45, XO (only one X chromosome), and 47, XXY, 47, XXX – both cases have an extra sex chromosome, either an X or a Y.
• In many children, the cause of intersex (formerly referred to as hermaphroditism) may remain undetermined, even with modern diagnostic techniques.
Gender development can go wrong from the womb. God Himself took responsibility for Moses’ speech impediment and for the man who was born blind. He allows people to be born with disorders so that “the works of God might be made manifest” in them.
Homosexuality is a disorder. It appears that besides a heterosexual’s own choices leading to homosexuality, one can be born with an inclination to it, or simply be born homosexual. If one is born that way that doesn’t mean homosexuality isn’t a disorder anymore than being born with cystic fibrosis doesn’t mean it isn’t a disorder. Cystic fibrosis and homosexuality are disorders.
Homosexuality is not natural, and homosexual fornication is an abomination. If having cystic fibrosis were somehow satisfying and even pleasurable at times, and it was possible to make choices that led to one’s contracting cystic fibrosis, it would still be a disorder and it would still be idiotic to promote having cystic fibrosis as an alternative lifestyle. In the same way it is idiotic and evil to promote the disorder of homosexuality as an alternative lifestyle.
However one contracts homosexuality, whether it was chosen or one was born with it, once one is afflicted with that condition, it isn’t having the condition that is sinful, any more than heterosexuality is sinful. Fornication, whether it be homosexual or heterosexual, is what is sinful.
Homosexuality is the counterfeit to God’s created heterosexuality. The attraction is not a created attraction. Whether one is conceived or develops or is born with incomplete physicality, does not make one have same sex attraction. The conditions listed state the physical condition a person might have, and in no way would any of those conditions make a person same sex attracted. Tue decision as to whether one is male or female would need to be made, but once known, therein lies no reason to not embrace one’s created by God, heterosexuality. Jesus Himself said that God created us male and female, and He knew that hermaphroditism happened to some people. Why God allows that condition, we do not know. God bless, C-Marie
Here is a quote from one of the greatest saints ever regarding homosexuality. St. Catherine relays words of Our Lord, about the vice against nature, which contaminated part of the clergy in her time. Referrng to sacred ministers, He said: “They not only fail from resisting this frailty [ of fallen human nature]…but do even worse as they commit the cursed sin against nature. Like the blind and stupid having dimmed the light of the understanding, they do not recoginze the disease and misery in which they find themselves. For this not only causes Me nausea, but displeases even the demons themselves, whom these miserable creatures have chosen as their lords. For Me, this sin against nature is so abominable that , for it alone, five cities were submersed, by virtue of the jugdment of My Divine Justice, which could no longer bear them…It is disagreable to the demon, not because evil displeases them and they find pleasure in good, but because their nature is angelic and thus is repulsed upon seeing such an enormous sin being commited. It is true that it is the demons who hit the sinner with the poisoned arrow of lust, but when a man carries out such a sinful act, the demons leave.
St.Catherine of Siena, El diabolo, in Orbas de Santa Catarina de Siena
There is obvious willfulness in the process of descending into homosexual behavior and making it habitual and developing practices to justify it in one’s mind. There are antecedent behaviors, like the perpetual pursuit of comfort over strenuousity. But most telling it the fact that close to a hundred percent of homosexuals are pro-abortion. Why would this be if they were not intent on lying to themselves?
Of course, there is a particular reason that they’re pro-abortion. For instance, without abortion one of the chief arguments in the Obergefell decision – that a man and woman can choose not to have children – would evaporate. For this reason, after Roe v. Wade is dismantled, Obergefell should fall soon thereafter.
“We shall find out at the day of judgment that the greater number of Christians who are lost were damned because they did not know their own religion.” – St. Jean-Marie Vianney
“A priest goes to Heaven or a priest goes to Hell with a thousand people behind.” – St. Jean-Marie Vianney
“an individual is working out of cognitive dissonance attempting to please everyone and accommodating a tradition he must appear to uphold but does not”
this seems like a pretty spot on description
If the author (or anyone else, for that matter) wants to designate something a “mental illness” he needs to either explain the medical criteria he used to justify that conclusion or make a medical argument for why the criteria needs to be changed. Citing Catholicism to challenge science is a losing proposition. Been there, done that, never worked.
The whole Francis world of word-play, omissions, obfuscation, uncorrected reportage, easily used leftist soundbites extracted from statements, ignoring whole bishop’s conferences about sex abuse, is all just par for the course. It’s one part Orwellian New Think, one part egomania, three parts Jesuit pride, two parts South American clericalism, five parts three stooges knowledge of the American Church, 8 parts agrieved South American victim of the evil US, 3 parts general hyperbole, 5.6 parts Trump ego, .05 percent some kind of spirit, holy or otherwise, 4 parts bar bouncer, 12 to 15 parts poor leadership, 0 parts European, 2 parts confused, 140 parts deliberate, 1/32 part St. Peter, and 2 parts rubber band collector. The only thing I know of that might have more parts is a McNugget or a can of spam.
Parts is parts, as the saying goes
Only, you can’t really say zero parts European,
if you consider certain German bishops, for example…
just one example…
In regard to the origins and treatment of unwanted same sex attractions (SSA) in Catholic youth, I recommend the Courage website, http://www.couragerc.net. Courage is the only international Catholic apostolate for those with SSA that is loyal to the Church’s teaching. One would have wished the Holy Father had recommended Courage and its ministry, EnCourage, to parents of children with SSA.
Everybody here is missing the point: A tefacted transcript is not a transcript. Homosexualism is so entrenched in the hierarchy that even the Pope has to make sure that what he says or hears is authentic and uncensored. That’s scary!
Yup, the gays and homosexualists took over awhile back.
Pope knows it, perhaps sympathizes with them.
It is the root cause of all that is exploding before us.
Our Lord will take care of business in His own good time.
Methinks it will be very much sooner rather than later.
Modern psychology agrees with practical unanimity that homosexuality is not a sickness. This does not mean that a child who shows the beginning of a homosexual tendency may not be referred to psychiatry, but that he should not be referred to psychiatry purely and simply on the basis the homosexual tendency itself. That is the legitimate distinction which the Vatican has made, and which I think Pope Francis also endorses.
It is not the role of the Vatican to provide alternative science. The Catechism is not providing alternative science when it tells us that homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered (i.e. morally wrong); and it is not providing alternative science when it tells us that the homosexual tendency is intrinsically disordered; when it say intrinsically disordered it is not using this term as a synonymm
for sickness. The Church is pronouncing moral truths grounded in revelation.
I think that this affirmation of the homosexual tendency as intrinsically disordered needs further development, in order to prevent homophobic interpretations, which are widespread and fundamentally wrong.
The homophobic interpretation confuses sin with sinner, confuses the sinful act with the fact of the tendency, confuses the tendency with vice, confuses moral evil with one’s subjective notions about things that one experience as yucky that turn one’s stomach and elicit uncontrolled feelings of hatred which are hypocritically justified according to a twisted notion of Christian morality.
It is unfortunate that modern psychiatry has been co-opted by the PC movement which regards homosexuality as simply another, and valid, alternative life style. This attitude serves no one well and is responsible for such linguistic nonsense as the term homophobia. It also engenders such spectacles as “pride festivals” and other cries for recognition as normalization of behaviors. Although decried today, there was some societal benefit in past decades of awareness of our hairdressers and decorators and the knowledge that the rest were quietly in the closet, without disturbance to the rest of ordered society.
Sexual perversion of all sorts is a great problem. It does, after all come under the heading of “Lust” in the ancient list of Deadly Sins. An improper thought, however, surely cannot rank level with actual rape. Nor can “Lust” dominate the stage when six more actors are always performing.
OK, I also believe homosexuality is a mental illness. So when did mental illness become a sin? There is not a cure or treatment for all mental illnesses. Unless it can be cured as an illness we are judgmental to vilify it.
Homosexuality is not a mental illness. It is serious immoral act. A grave evil. People in the Church have been downplaying the evil nature of homosexuality. Only a faithful bishop can heal the person who sincerely wants to stop being a homosexual.
Do homosexuals have a different hormonal balance than heterosexuals?
The temptation to commit homosexual acts may be a mental illness (or, deferring to the greater knowledge of Rusty in his post below, a psychological problem). Temptation isn’t sin. However, committing homosexual acts *is* a sin. And, no, you don’t get to claim, “Well, but if someone is tempted to do it, it’s not a sin, so stop being judgmental.”
I am a Licensed Clinical Social Worker and therapist. I provide Reparative Therapy services for me with unwanted same sex attractions. It is very important that understand that homosexuality is NOT a mental illness from a clinical standpoint and should not be spoken of that way in a cultural perspective. Homosexuality has a “psychological genesis” as the catechism states. A psychological problem is not a psychiatric issue. I can have very low self-esteem which would be a psychological issue. My low self-esteem would not be a mental illness and should not be addressed by a psychiatrist. It is critically important that any individual talking about homosexuality truly know what they are saying, otherwise please don’t say anything. Mis-statements and mis-information on this subject hurts the Church’s credibility tremendously on this topic.
To the article: “Physical factors might be associated with same-sex desires (e.g., genetic or biological predispositions toward homosexuality, even though these have yet to be demonstrated scientifically)……”
“The homosexual condition is a psychological deficit that has a psychological genesis.”
Homosexuality is the counterfeit to God’s creation of heterosexuality. Homosexuality is not caused by genetics nor is its cause biological. Homosexuality is an ingenius insertion into humanity’s desire to have no one but self as the authority to which one submits oneself to.
The inroads by which the pusher of homosexuality works, are to take over a person through emotional upsets, turmoils, traumas, generally with the authority figures in one’s personal life.
It then proceeds to the mind with peaceful images of being with another of the same sex that one is experiencing these upsets with. Then the mind can be worked on by the pusher with images that grow more graphic and sooner or later, the connection with homosexuality is induced, made, and often concretized.
Thus one is caught up in the web of same sex attraction, becomes convinced this is the truth about oneself, and hides the accepted untruth.
The Catholic Church has not made good use of the gifts the Holy Spirit has given to the ordained priests on up to set people free from the insidious lie of homosexuality.
Just to say So sorry you must suffer this way, be chaste and pray, is not God’s solution. His solution is to teach the truth and to set people free!
Homosexuality is a lie that is believed to be a truth by many, plus it is the easy way out rather than the use of the extraordinary powers of the Holy Spirit. If the hierarchy of the Catholic Church is willing as St. Paul was, to free people from this lie, then ever so much glory will be given to God our Father and the “rightness of this counterfeit” will be removed.
God bless, C-Marie
None of us are born perfect. Why is it a lie to say that a person is born predisposed to a same-sex attraction? It is one of the effects of original sin. Not all of its effects will be removed from a person.
Calling it a mental illness diminishes the will to abstain from homosexual acts which can be controlled by the temperance or self-control enabled by the Holy Spirit.
Because we are not born with our sins.
Check out: “Whatever Became of Sin” by Dr. Karl Menninger. It discusses the push to remove homosexuality as a mental illness in the medical field.
Homosexuality is not a mental illness. If it is a mental illness than that means they are born with the affliction. It’s an immoral sin.
The only way to get chastity for the members of the Church is to revisit the Holy Spirit spirituality of the New Testament. It provides the fruit of the Spirit temperance or self-control (see Galatians 5:22-23). It is not a Eucharist or Mary based spirituality; and it is not a Christian coated Buddhism or Hinduism.
Considering that the Eucharist is the True Body and Blood of Christ (see John 6, etc.) and Mary is the Mother of God (see Luke 1-2, etc), and considering the Eucharist is given by the power of the Holy Spirit and Mary is with Child by the power of the Holy Spirit, there is no conflict or tension between the three. To imply so is to read Scripture poorly and to misunderstand Catholicism quite overtly.
I think labelling homosexuality as a “mental illness” is quite condescending on your part. Don’t attempt to label something that you don’t understand, especially when your limited understanding comes from a single line in the Old Testament. Being gay is completely normal and is found in all animals, which shows that it is not a choice or illness, as they cannot grasp the idea of God or sin, let alone turning their backs on Him. My God is a God of love, and he sent his only son to spread this message. I understand what a mental illness is, and sexuality, whether evident from early stages of childhood or “20 years later”, is not on this list – attempting to convert or “pray the gay away” is quite, to say the very least, immoral, unloving and completely messed up, considering you are changing someone’s entire human experience and tainting them as Other, which, I believe my God of love would not approve. From my understanding as a Christian, the pain and anguish and horror of this torture is the work of Satan.
Conversion therapy is a form of torture, and according to Dr. Robert Spitzer’s study on 143 “ex-gays” who went through Conversion Therapy, 89% of the men still had feelings of attraction to people of the same-sex – many that are “cured” end up admitting years later that they did it to get out of the torture. The success rate of Conversion Therapy ranges from 11% to 37% anyway. Conversion Therapy is very counter-productive in fact. Many people involved in Conversion Therapy have committed or attempted suicide.
Homosexuals are not born that way. The choose to be “gay”. Sodom and Gamorrah were destroyed because of homosexuality. It is a sin to be gay.
The Catholic World Report states here that it welcomes “a civilized and helpful level of discussion” and does not permit comments that are “needlessly combative or inflammatory”. OK … Sounds good. Meanwhile, I’ve just been going through the comments you permit. And so I read here that gay people (often called “homosexualists” on this site) are: mentally ill, sick, demonic, abnormal, a counterfeit version of humanity, major sinners, wilfully deviant, obsessive-compulsive, 100% pro-abortion perverts, typically hairdressers and decorators, who commit filthy acts condemned by the Pope and “who took over a while back”. Right. This sort of language must add up to the sort of “discussion” that you wish to promote about those of your fellow human-beings (including some Catholics, you know) who are … “homosexualists”. But I am more than a bit intrigued that you seek to characterise it as … “civilised and helpful”. Really? Civilised and helpful?? Please – in this context, I’m an ignorant Jewish outsider, indeed, a rabbi – but I’m rather interested in the way that religious people talk about the issue of homosexuality. In fact, I myself find the sort of anti-homosexual vocabulary which I encounter here more than a little “combative and inflammatory”. Clearly, however, the CWR takes a view diametrically at odds with my impressions. And so I want to ask: how is it civilised and helpful to talk about gay people in this way?
Rabbi we’re not living in an antiseptic morally neutral world. A Catholic forum open to discussion has to give a degree of leeway. Otherwise over editing tends to shape discussion into a panel for a completely neutral professional psychiatric analysis of homosexuality, which this forum is not. Sigmund Freud an agnostic perhaps atheist Jew made such a clinical assessment in Analysis Terminable and Interminable. His findings [he treated homosexual patients] were that it’s a form of immaturity, remaining in an adolescent state. The basis for that opinion is “For the psychical field, the biological field does in fact play the part of the underlying bedrock” (Freud Terminable 1937 The Standard Edition London: Hogarth 1971 PP 253). He perceived a natural tendency toward opposite sex attraction. Not for same sex attraction. Dr Gerard van den Aardweg has a similar assessment. Either homosexual behavior is natural or it is not. Here we’re primarily approaching the issue from a traditionally Roman Catholic perspective similar to Jewish tradition. Rather than simply criticizing comments why not add your own perspective?
In the old testament Yaweh condemned homosexual relationships. You as a Jewish rabbi must accept this since it’s coming from Yaweh.
LC is intrinsically disordered and everyone in it has been subject to long and intense malformation. The rot is endemic. There is no charism, and the lie is still peddled that the Maciel mess has been cleaned up. The priests of the LC have grave need of prayers. May they have the courage to get out.