Elizabeth Kirk, research associate and lecturer at CUA’s Columbus School of Law. / Catholic University of America
Denver Newsroom, Oct 5, 2021 / 00:01 am (CNA).
This December, the US Supreme Court is set to hear Dobbs v. Jackson Women’s Health Organization, a case that many experts say presents the most momentous test yet of Roe v. Wade, the 1973 decision that legalized abortion nationwide. At issue is the constitutionality of Mississippi’s 2018 law banning abortion after 15 weeks of pregnancy.
As with any high-profile Supreme Court case, dozens of amicus curiae, or “friend of the court,” briefs have been filed both in support of and in opposition to the Mississippi law.
What follows is a Q&A with Elizabeth Kirk, a research associate and lecturer at the Catholic University of America and one of the signers of an amicus brief supporting Mississippi’s abortion law.
The brief lays out an argument that abortion has hurt women’s advancement; that women were making strides toward equality before Roe; and that abortion is not necessary for women’s socioeconomic success.
Kirk is a research associate and lecturer at the Catholic University of America, where she also serves as the Director of the Center for Law and the Human Person. Her scholarly interests are in the area of law and the family, and in particular the intersection between law and the Catholic intellectual tradition.
CNA: The amicus brief you signed lays out an argument that contrary to the Supreme Court’s rulings, abortion has not facilitated women’s advancement, and in reality, has hurt women. Can you walk me through the brief’s argument and evidence?
EK: There are 80 briefs in support of the State of Mississippi in the Dobbs case, each one articulating a different relevant argument. The focus of this particular amicus brief relates to the claim made in Planned Parenthood v. Casey (1992) to justify upholding Roe: “the ability of women to participate equally in the economic and social life of the Nation has been facilitated by their ability to control their reproductive lives.”
The authors rebut this claim, summarizing the empirical evidence relating to women’s historical achievements and their participation in society in the last half-century, and demonstrate convincingly that the Casey premise is false, i.e., that there is no causal link between the availability of abortion and women’s participation in society.
Furthermore, the authors point out that the data actually suggest some correlation between abortion and negative consequences for women, such as the feminization of poverty and declining levels of happiness.
Finally, the authors make the point that the argument that women need abortion to participate necessarily takes the male reproductive experience as the model for economic and social participation, and that this lopsided view has prevented meaningful accommodation of women, including their experience of pregnancy and motherhood, in the workplace and other spheres of society.
How did it come about that you signed the amicus brief in this case? Have you signed amicus briefs in similar cases in the past?
The amicus brief drafted by Teresa Collett, Helen Alvare and Erika Bachiochi was written on behalf of professional women and women scholars who hold doctorate degrees, as well as prolife feminist organizations. Any woman who fit that description and supported the brief’s argument was welcome to join. I know the drafters personally and was honored to sign.
I have testified in state legislatures on matters related to abortion, but this is the first amicus brief I have signed on the topic. I joined previous amicus briefs in Fulton v. City of Philadelphia [a significant case related to religious freedom] and Harris Funeral Homes v. EEOC, a companion case to Bostock [a 2020 decision that a federal ban on sex discrimination also protects sexual orientation and gender identity].
Many are saying the Dobbs case has a chance of overturning Roe v. Wade. Do you agree?
Certainly. This case presents this question to the Court: “Whether all pre-viability prohibitions on elective abortions are unconstitutional.” Under the governing precedents of Roe and Casey, there is a constitutionally protected right to abortion and states may not place an “undue burden” on it before viability. So, the question presented goes to the heart of the matter.
Of course, there are a number of ways the Court could handle this case short of overturning Roe and Casey. For example, it may affirm the constitutional right itself, but articulate a different test than the current “undue burden” test, or it may reconsider the role of viability in evaluating laws restricting abortion.
Many people are talking about what a “post-Roe” country could look like. What could the legal landscape of the United States look like, in terms of abortion law, if Roe is overturned?
A post-Roe legal landscape will better reflect the different views our pluralistic society holds on abortion. If Roe is overturned, all this means is that abortion regulation will again become the province of the states (as it was before 1973) and different states may be more restrictive or more permissive, as their constituencies demand through the legislative process.
We already know that some states, either legislatively or judicially, allow abortion in almost every instance. For example, New York and Illinois have very permissive abortion laws. The state supreme court of Kansas recently found a natural right to abortion in its state constitution which will likely invalidate many of its state restrictions on abortion. Overruling Roe would have little impact on the law in such states.
Some have speculated that since abortion rates are highest in places that already have such permissive abortion laws, if Roe were overturned, the national abortion rate would not be impacted dramatically. Those seeking to promote a culture of life, and a culture that supports women and embraces pregnancy and motherhood, would still have work to do.
Of course, overturning Roe would give more latitude to those states that wanted to protect human life more vigorously than is possible under the Roe/Casey regime. Pro-life advocates would need to persuade legislators and voters of the wisdom of this and to be creative about laws, policies, and initiatives to help women and families welcome children more readily.
Do you ever feel you are treated differently from others because you are a pro-life woman?
Frequently, I experience the presumption that, because I am a professional woman with an advanced degree, I must be pro-choice.
We hear a lot about the pro-life position being “anti-science” or “anti-intellectual.” Do you face this accusation often? If so, how do you respond?
I do not experience this accusation often. I think many people today, familiar with incredibly detailed ultrasound photos of their siblings or their own children, are reluctant to deny the obvious humanity of the unborn child.
Rather, I experience more frequently the arguments that (1) the pro-life position fails to promote women’s equality (refuted in our brief); (2) women’s healthcare includes abortion access (which depends on the faulty premise that fertility and pregnancy are “diseases”), or (3) the pro-life movement only demonstrates concern for unborn children (which Helen Alvaré has convincingly called the “lazy slander of the pro-life movement”.)
Have you always considered yourself to be pro-life, or was there a moment or event that convinced you of the position?
For me this has always been a very personal matter as I was the child of a “crisis pregnancy” and my husband and I were blessed to adopt our four children, three at birth through private placements by their birth families and the littlest one through foster care.
The reality of the pressures that my mother, and the birthmothers of our children, may have experienced has informed my thinking about how we might best respond generously to women in need to support them and their children.

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Kudos to Bishop Barron!
Amen!🙏
It would be nice if the Bishop could be a little less of a cheerleader for Trump? Balance anyone?
Who would you rather he be a cheerleader for? President Kamala Harris?! Not likely, or for any other Democrat because almost all of the Democrats involved in politics or who currently serve in office are PRO-CHOICE, even to the point of allowing abortion through all nine months! (One exception is Dan Lipinski in Illinois, who served as Representative to Congress from 2005-2021, when radical Democrats who hated his pro-life stand and other conservative-leaning stands forced him out of office, no doubt with the votes of many dead Illinoisians. I know there are a still a few pro-life politicians in the Democratic Party–but only a few. Those dead Illinoisians vote for their extremely-liberal Democrat friends! (Actually I hope those dead Illinoisians are HAUNTING the Gov. Pritzker and his pals!)
First Lady Trump has been a Catholic all her life, and IMO, she is responsible for Donald Trump’s departure from his past “pagan” ways (which were often publicized in the tabloids–and were true!) and his entry into U.S. politics, including running for President. He could have spent all his time playing golf and attending rich people parties, but he chose to give all that up and serve his country.
Donald Trump has been a supporter with large financial donations to various charities and “good causes” for decades. E.g., years ago, a figure skating coach started a club in Harlem (NYC) for African American, Hispanic, and other girls who lived in Harlem. She spent her own money, and if you know anything about figure skating, it’s one of the most expensive sports–a pair of good figure skates will cost several hundred dollars, even a few thousand dollars, and a good coach will earn a salary of around $40-$80/lesson or more. The coach used all her savings and much of her income to try to keep the club afloat, and eventually, started appealing to various wealthy people in NYC. Pres. Trump (who for some reason has an interest in figure skating that he doesn’t publicize), stepped in and paid the bills for this organization for several months, and eventually other celebrities (possibly because of his involvement) got involved–and now the Board that helps govern and fundraise for FSH consists of other wealthy people, movie stars, and even Al Roker–who also attends the FSH ice shows and occasionally the competitions. FSC in Harlem has seen 99% of their skaters graduate from high school and avoid run-ins with the law or with drugs, and a sizeable percentage of these skaters (mainly girls) go on to earn college degrees and even advanced degrees–and then start giving back to the organization that gave them hope and helped THEM become high achievers. I think this act of charity, never publicized, makes it obvious that Donald Trump is worth “cheering” for, and I can’t help but wonder what other organizations he has stepped in and personally “Saved” with donations and encouragement. Oh, I know, he’s far from a moral paragon, but…he has been willing to step up and give up a retirement of golf and relaxation to spend many hours every day and even risk his life serving his country.
Also, please remember that none of Pres. Trump’s 5 children have been involved in any type of scandal or questionable behavior, and during his first term, when various media moguls started questioning Barron’s mental state (there was even conjecture among liberals and Democrats that the quiet young boy might be mentally-ill or worse), First Lady Trump moved herself and Barron OUT of the White House into their private apartment at the top of Trump Towers and had the boy schooled there–and obviously, Barron has turned out to be a fine young man. I remember at a funeral of one of family’s relatives died, Barron took his father’s arm and helped him up onto a curb at one point during or perhaps after the funeral–just a little gesture of kindness and respect, but what a difference between Barron Trump and Pres. Biden’s wayward son! Barron apparently ran the campaign to young voters during the 2024 campaign, and he was very successful.
You may not feel up to “cheering” for Pres. Trump, but recognize, please, the good things that he accomplished in his first term, and all the good things he HOPES to accomplish in his second term–barring constant interference and scandal-mongering from the Democrats “serving” (themselves?) in public office.
Trump is a disaster. A pseudo Fascist trying to institute a dictatorship. Barron is a Bishop thus should not be va cheerleader for either party.
Bishop Barron has an authentically Catholic intellectual and spiritual center from which he operates and so he will be a voice of reason and moderation on the Commission which might otherwise drift toward theocratic overreach and/or be dominated by an idolatrous form of Christian nationalism that needs to be checked. If he were any less Trump-friendly, he would not even have a seat at the table. Bishop Barron will make a sound, rational, principledcase for religious liberty and freedom of conscience, which is what we need–not a brash MAGA triumphalism that energizes secularists.
When Cupich and Tobin were cheerleaders for Biden were you as concerned? And serving on a commission is hardly cheerleading. Barron didn’t give TV interviews during the campaign like those two cardinals did.
People in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones. How about bringing a little balance to your own perspective before judging others?
I see Bishop Barron beat up on regular basis by folks on either extreme, William. To me that suggests he’s balanced.
If both extremes attack you, you must be doing something right.
“‘What [Tolkkinen] and her colleagues fear the most are confident and assertive religious people who refuse to stay sequestered in private'”.
Example: Bishop Barron.
May his tribe increase.
But, but, sputter, sputter! We DO have an “established” national religion!
The subterfuge has been that Congress didn’t establish it. Rather, under the other two Executive and the Judicial Branches of government, Secular Humanism is now established. Note previous Executive Orders, decisions of the United States Supreme Court, e.g., Obergefell v. Hodges and, formerly, Roe v. Wade; and the more recent DEI agenda under the Department of Education and school bureaucracies at the State level.
The First Amendment restrains only Congress from establishing a national religion, but the Founding Fathers never guessed at the need to restrain the other two branches of the federal government, or the States.
The Religious Liberty Commission is not setting the clock back; it’s setting the clock right.
I have to agree with Mr. Beaulieu above that Secular Humanism is the de facto state religion, and not just in the U.S.
I would love to see Bishop Barron elevated to the Cardinalate. Loads of respect for him.
I’d like to see that, too. Bishop Barron does a great deal of good & he does much good behind the scenes also.
Sometimes when you read the comments you understand that projection isn’t just for devices in movie theatres.
Sheesh.
The valued signal from Bishop Barron rings true to the masses.
I must disagree with his appointment to Trump’s Religious Liberty Commission. Aligning with Trump’s leanings toward an autocracy could be enough, but his immoral penchant, spewing lies and hatred, resulting in violence, further darkens the image of a convicted felon, which should make any man of the cloth take pause. Moreover, hundreds of thousands of citizens demonstrating across the country, decrying the harsh and unlawful tactics.
Trump’s flawed mass deportation will never reach its goal. There are 11 million migrants in the US. VP John Donald Vance, a Catholic convert, said we will deport one million per year. 11 years? I ask Why are ICE “officers” wearing masks? Seems like there are ICE agents in every city. What is that costing us?
Moreover, the appointment of Texas Lieutenant Governor Dan Patrick (Chair) also causes me concern. Patrick has been a stalwart in trying to eliminate Diversity, Equity and Inclusion, and Critical Race Theory that are used to advance people of color. “Color blindness”? Also, Affirmative Action. I may be wrong, but all seem to hit on one note: suppression of non-whites. The voices for these classes seem to echo louder. “Driving brown beware” I admit I am not deeply educated on the subjects. So, please correct me.
Bishop Barron: Dictator “Relativism is a poison. It attacks our most human capacity, the capacity to seek and know the truth, including the moral truth. A dictatorship of relativism imposes by real cultural force (and even by political force) a no-standard standard, a command that all must imbibe this poison.”
The First Amendment to the Constitution prevents Congress from establishing a national religion — a position Barron agrees with — the second clause in the amendment bars Congress from interfering with the free exercise of religion.
Bishop Barron: Fight hard against any formal establishment of religion, but fight just as hard for the right to exercise religion in the public space.” Right on!
Recent news. Trump’s/Noem’s ICE runs rampant, AGAIN: ICE Masked Border Patrol agents detain a landscaper Narciso Barranco, after repeatedly hitting him and throwing him to the ground. He is the father of three sons who are all U.S. Marines.
https://ktla.com/news/local-news/santa-ana-landscaper-detained/
The Catholic Church has been very vocal regarding Trump’s mass deportation plan. I would like to know Bishop Barron’s opinion.
I ask Why are ICE “officers” wearing masks? ”
*****
What do you guess law enforcement agents wear masks for? Who might want to retaliate against them?
mrsc. I think you hit on the essence of my post. However, your eyes might be wide shut. I don’t mean to be rude, but I cannot find anything to support your hyperbole, just the opposite.
Reuters: Every day, in communities nationwide, police officers do their jobs with a high degree of transparency: The public can see the officers’ faces, badge numbers, rank and, in most instances, even their last names featured on uniforms. Though many cops are forced to deal with threats and violence, there isn’t a police department in the United States that allows officers to wear masks or hide their identities while they carry out day-to-day duties.
Thanks for your reply.
Bishop Barron stands head and shoulders above so many in the episcopate with his depth theological insight and his common sense. He is an authentic gift to the Church, domestically and internationally. He requires a more significant responsibility for the benefit all of us. We can be grateful that his voice is heard on the Religious Liberty Commission.
God willing, his talents will soon be recognized by a significant advancement in Church leadership.
God reward him.
morganD above – James David Vance.
An argument is only as strong as its weakest “fact”.
Sorry, Cleo. My keyboard is a challenge. I meant John Donald Vance.
Thanks.
The “Excited States” has many national religions – greed, lust, envy, etc,…..