Rome Newsroom, Jun 16, 2025 / 16:31 pm (CNA).
Cardinal Raymond Burke said he has asked Pope Leo XIV to remove measures restricting the celebration of the Traditional Latin Mass (TLM) in dioceses.
Burke spoke at a London conference organized by The Latin Mass Society of England and Wales, telling attendees that he hopes the new pontiff will “put an end to the persecution” of Catholic faithful who want to celebrate Mass using the “more ancient usage” — “usus antiquior” — of the Roman liturgy.
The prefect emeritus of the Apostolic Signatura and former patron of the Order of Malta was one of seven guest panelists invited to speak at the faith and culture conference held on June 14.
Auxiliary Bishop Athanasius Schneider of Astana, Kazakhstan, who has written extensively on the Eucharist and Church tradition, also spoke at the weekend conference held to mark the 60th anniversary of the U.K.-based society.
“I certainly have already had occasion to express that to the Holy Father,” Burke said via video link. “It is my hope that he will, as soon as is reasonably possible, take up the study of this question.”
After the Second Vatican Council, Pope Paul VI promulgated the Novus Ordo Missae in 1969. This liturgy, celebrated in the vernacular, largely replaced the TLM in dioceses worldwide.
During the conference, Burke expressed his desire for Pope Leo to overturn Francis’ 2021 Traditionis Custodes moto proprio and restore Benedict XVI’s 2007 Summorum Pontificum, the Catholic Herald reported.
“It is my hope,” Burke said at the conference, “[Leo will] even continue to develop what Pope Benedict XVI had so wisely and lovingly legislated for the Church.”
Besides criticisms leveled against Traditionis Custodes, the U.S. cardinal has been publicly critical of other initiatives led by Pope Francis.
In 2016, Burke and three other cardinals submitted “dubia” — formal requests for clarification — regarding interpretations of the apostolic exhortation Amoris Laetitia.
The prelate also criticized the 2019 Synod on the Pan-Amazon Region convened by Pope Francis, saying parts of the agenda appeared “contrary” to Catholic teaching.
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We read: “In 2016, Burke and three other cardinals submitted ‘dubia’ — formal requests for clarification — regarding interpretations of the apostolic exhortation Amoris Laetitia.”
At issue is whether pastoral practice can contradict the natural law and moral absolutes, of which the Church is “no way the author nor the arbiter” (Veritatis Splendor, 1993, n. 95).
Four points and a summary:
FIRST, waiting in the wing is the now dangling post-synodal study group #9, one of fifteen dealing with the sidelined “hot button issues”—namely “Theological criteria and synodal methodologies for shared discernment of controversial doctrinal, pastoral, and ethical issues.” Say what?
SECOND, about intermingled synodism with moral theology, one framing input could have been layman Russell Shaw (former Secretary for Public Affairs of the then National Conference of Catholic Bishops) and his very readable “Papal Primacy in the Third Millennium” (Our Sunday Visitor, 2000)…
The long histories of the papacy and conciliarism, both, are succinctly summarized; relevant documents are lucidly cited; various proposals for shared are summarized; including a synod shared-jurisdiction model based on archbishoprics rather than bottoms-up roundtables (with the role of bishops not limited “primarily as facilitators”); but overall with this form of decentralization in tandem with (almost replacing) vastly reduced curial offices; all still subject to well-advised papal authority, but more by exception where non-negotiable guardrails are endangered—such that Church unity is respected and advanced. As well as (surely) the morality of the inborn and universal natural law (now explicitly part of the Magisterium, under Veritatis Splendor, n. 115).
THIRD, from the back bleachers, it seems that synods could have been productively advanced within—rather than without?—the “hierarchical communion” articulated in Lumen Gentium (which the Council approved by a vote of 2,099 to 46, including the “Explanatory Note” approved by a vote of 2,134 to 10).
FOURTH, instead of a bottoms-up/synodal “inverted pyramid,” Shaw cites British historian Thomas Babington Macaulay, no friend of Catholicism:
“…The Arabs have a fable that the Great Pyramid was built by antediluvian kings, and alone, of all the works of men, bore the weight of the flood. Such as this was the fate of the Papacy [Protestantism, and Revolutionary France]. It had been buried under the great inundation; but its deep foundations had remained unshaken; and when the waters abated, it appeared alone amidst the ruins of the world which had passed away.”
SUMMARY: How better to marry “communio” under the universal call to holiness with the foundational and intact “hierarchical communion” of Lumen Gentium? This, rather than the rigid myopia of suppressing TLM?
Mr. Beaulieu, as a former Naval Officer, Perhaps you can refine my understanding that as a courtesy, the Second Mate does not change course for the first 30 minutes of his shift. To do so before that is to render a negative judgment of the previous watch stander. Pethaps that is Pope Leo’s tack? Time will tell.
In the meantime, the effective message Francis gave to the world of tolerating moral capriciousness continues unabated. A Church that told the world for 12 years that we have no special ability to witness moral truth, aids and abets moral disasters, including the extermination of inconvenient life.
Thank you Mr Joseph. I didn’t know that naval custom. That’s very interesting.
My guess is that Pope Leo won’t change anything regarding the usage of the TLM for at least the remainder of this year. If he does indeed allow wider usage of the Latin Mass, he should decree that a new, updated missal be published for liturgical use. As beautiful as the TLM is, calendar-wise, it has been stuck in time since 1962. There have been many new saints canonized and different feast days added to the Roman calendar since 1962, most notably Divine Mercy Sunday. A new missal is badly needed for the TLM to stay in congruence with the current Roman calendar.
Leave the translations, liturgical rubrics, and symbolism the same as the ’62 missal. Just update the missal.
Make women’s veils optional as it is in the English Mass and the Byzantine Rite, and maybe remind people that they don’t have to dress like they just stepped out of an 1800’s Laura Ingalls Wilder book. It’s not wrong for a lady to wear dress pants to either an English or Latin Mass instead of a skirt that’s so long, the altar boys look like they’re wearing shorts.
Yes, wear nice and modest clothes for Mass. But dress as if you live in 2025.
Headcoverings are entirely optional at our local TLM. I hear you about the sort of dress choices you can see but it’s a free country after all. I may naturally dress like Laura Ingalls Wilder but that’s not something enforced at the TLM. I also see ladies in jeans with mantillas frequently. At the end of the day it’s really not anyone’s business. Modesty’s a virtue but modesty is first modeled in our hearts.
The only thing I want to see banned are long skirts/dresses with high tops. What is with this younger generation??
High tops?
Think basketball shoes, but the ones I am thinking of are Converse High Top Sneakers. (Google it if interested).
.
High tops sneakers have their place, although I don’t think the Converse shoes would make a good basketball shoe. I suppose with the right pants or jeans they could be okay for Mass. But not with a long skirt or dress. Please, girl, buy some pumps or something
High top sneakers paired with long dresses.
It’s a perfectly acceptable smart-casual — and modest — fashion choice by young women.
Thank you for explaining Mrs Hess. I thought maybe you were talking about high cut midriff exposing tops. That would certainly be something unusual at the TLM.
🙂
I haven’t noticed those tennis shoes but I don’t pay a whole lot of attention to fashion. I guess now I’ll be watching for them.
Perhaps we need to have moral cops at our doors! 🫢 God forbid that we welcome sinners into our midst.
No reply button for Br. Jaques below closing a thread. But I can’t resist reminding Brother that extolling the virtue of modesty, including that of men who should not dress as slobs, does not constitute in any way being unwelcoming to sinners.
The liturgical calendar linked to the Novus Ordo is an incongruous disaster. Very few who support the Traditional Latin Mass would wish to see its missal align with the liturgical year of the Novus Ordo. And ALL the traditionalist orders would flatly reject such a move. “Updating” the 1962 missal in such a radical manner would promote just as much division as trying to ban the TLM altogether.
There is a book called Cooking for Christ: Your Kitchen Prayer Book, by Florence Berger. It was originally published in 1949, by Catholic Rural Life. It ties different recipes in with the liturgical year, showing traditional foods that were made for the different saints’ days and holidays.
They reissued it fairly recently, edited. I don’t so much mind that they had people add foods for holidays that weren’t mentioned in the original book, but it annoys the fire out of me that they put recipes for St. Thomas’ Day in the Christmas season under St. Thomas Becket, using the words the original author wrote regarding the feast of St. Thomas the Apostle, which used to be celebrated on December 21 but was changed to July 3 in 1969 “so that the series of major ferias of Advent not be interrupted,” (because somehow after a thousand years of celebrating it on December 21 it suddenly because such a terribly pressing issue /s). Instead of explaining that Risengrod and Pate de Noel were traditionally made on December 21 for the feast of St. Thomas but now that feast has been moved to July 3, the new edition pretends that it was related to St. Thomas of Canterbury (December 29), thus moving it from before to after Christmas.
It makes me very cranky, as do other things that got edited because they were too old-fashioned.
I wish they’d leave the calendar alone. God may not need the reassurance and continuity of liturgical seasons & Holy days but we do.
If all the traditionalist orders would reject it, what does that say about them? Seems like Pope Francis was right in noting the dissentiion among TLM-ers. They reject papal authority when it doesn’t support their nostalgia.
Much like bishops since 1970 have rejected parts of VII or papal authority when it comes to novelty and heterodox beliefs.
If “TLM-ers” reject papal authority, why have they not joined schismatic churches?
No, Franciscus punished Catholics he disliked, often lashing out at those who dared disagree with him. So too Franciscus petted and promoted those who embraced his heteropraxy and various ideological agendas.
Perhaps Pope Leo will test further the obedience of those who prefer the Mass he learned as a child. Perhaps a different Pope will resolve this abuse. Regardless , afterFranciscus, my guess is that these Catholics will continue to wait for liturgical justice. Only the Beauty of God is everlasting.
God’s Fool- One foot on either side of the fence?
You haven’t got a clue. The TLM is a youth movement. Any visit to a TLM in progress will confirm that. Those opposed to the TLM are the ones immersed in “nostalgia” … for the 1970s.
Who wants to join an all-white, homeschooling, maga-voting group of thirty-somethings who drive an hour one way to worship in a language they think they know (but need a translation for), trash talk their local bishop (if they even know his name) and discuss the finer points of chant? Not many, which is why the TLM isn’t growing. It isn’t for all times and all people in all places anymore. The tradas destroyed that with their play-acting and re-creating the past.
Oh my goodness Annie! And was ” all white’ needed?
The nonsensical presupposition of Francis, that projected and condemned that which does not exist, such as meaningless “nostalgia,” can never be right. Honoring the Church triumphant, those in heaven, and the Communion of Saints, which helps to remind us of our non-superiority to the peoples of the past, can never be without purpose.
There is no question that reconciling the TLM Missal with the current catalogue of saints would be a very beautiful and healing liturgical act.
Q: Where among the seven deadly sins does “nostalgia” fit in?
Paul – It has been given to me to understand that nostalgia and backwardness were writ in the Magisterium of Francis’ List of Sins.
So,
Please see my reply, below, of today, 8:11 AM.
Best to you.
2025 isn’t noted for its nice and modest clothes.
And I don’t see anyone advocating for corsets and hoopskirts, which is what adult women in the Little House books wore.
“they don’t have to dress like they just stepped out of an 1800’s Laura Ingalls Wilder book”
Some of us would merely appreciate if they would dress as though they were not buying their clothes at Sherwin Williams.
“maybe remind people that they don’t have to dress like they just stepped out of an 1800’s Laura Ingalls Wilder book.”
How about maybe remind people that they should not dress like they just stepped out of Sherwin Williams, a night club, bed or a used clothing store.
That too, Mr Pitchfork.
But I’m not going to dress to the extreme nines for Mass. I don’t feel like getting laughed at by my family. I wear black dress pants and shoes, and a clean polo, which nobody ever sees since I serve at almost every Mass or Divine Liturgy I attend.
I’m there to give God my 1% due and receive the Eucharist, not to play dress up with the rest of the traddy fashion victims who judge the guy in the blue jeans and sneakers, while seemingly oblivious to the splotch of mud on their shoes. Again, no offense to anyone here, but I’m tired of the “members only, formal attire required” attitude of (some, not all) TLM attendees.
All my clothes actually come from the Goodwill, Mr Pitchfork and so did the clothing my 8 children wore growing up.
That’s what we could afford.
But I like the Sherwin Williams joke. Thank you, that was pretty funny.
🙂
Cardinal Burke is lying! His claim that restrictions on the Traditional Latin Mass (TLM) amount to “persecution” of faithful Catholics is false and distorts the intent of Traditionis Custodes (2021). Pope Francis issued the document not to suppress tradition, but to promote unity in worship and fidelity to the vision of Vatican II. The Council called for a reformed liturgy to foster full, conscious participation, and Canon Law (Canon 838) affirms the Holy See’s authority to regulate liturgical practices. After a global consultation revealed that the TLM was sometimes used to reject Vatican II, the Pope acted pastorally to protect Church unity. Calling this “persecution” misrepresents the Church’s governance and fosters division. The TLM is still allowed under certain conditions, especially when aligned with the Church’s broader life. While love for the Vetus Ordo is valid, it must not become a rallying point for dissent. The Church’s liturgy should reflect unity and living tradition—not retreat into nostalgia or resistance to reform.
Deaccon Dom, calumny & detraction are things we shouldn’t be taking lightly. Charity in speech is pretty critical too.
No, it is Pope Francis who lied, repeatedly, about the communities who desire the TLM and his motivations for attacking it. The results of the so-called “global consultation” were never released, because the faithful – apart from hate-filled people – did not wish to see the TLM restricted. Nor did the majority of the world’s bishops. It is only the noisy minority of agnostic modernists who agitate against the traditional liturgy of the Church.
Deacon Dom: Maybe you can find a way to work some of your TDS material into the discussion.
Hah! We can DREAM of his being a bit creative. Instead, we read (or do not, which I do) the same old tired tawdry talking points aimed at untruth, filled with deceit and malice. Then he makes of himself not only a deacon but also a dom. Hah!
meiron, as far as my understanding permits me, “Dom” is a title used for monks – usually the abbot. Maybe “Deacon Dom” is a monk.
Yes. Dom could stand for Dominic or Dominicus. This guy could really be or suggest to us that he may be a monk or an abbot. The name could reflect how he sees himself, with or without basis in reality.
Some of us find his posts short on charity. I usually note the name then fly by.
Dom writes: “Pope Francis issued the document not to suppress tradition, but to promote unity in worship and fidelity to the vision of Vatican II. The Council called for a reformed liturgy to foster full, conscious participation, and Canon Law (Canon 838) affirms the Holy See’s authority to regulate liturgical practices. ”
Unity in worship? What planet have you been on since 1965. Let me set you straight, Dom: There is NO UNITY in the NO Mass. To asset same leads me to believe that: a. You are not a Catholic deacon; b. You are not a Catholic; c. You haven’t been to many Masses since 1965.
This “unity” is limited. Catholics all over the world attend different Liturgies. Personally, I’ve been to the TLM, Byzantine and Anglican Ordinariate Masses. I found them edifying and reverent. Why the hostility to one.
I don’t understand the problem either . Unity doesn’t mean uniformity. I’ll go to any Mass: Byzantine, Maronite, NO, TLM or mariachi.
I understand the disappointment people had about the TLM being suppressed. I was distressed about that too. But I don’t understand the contention and division going on between fellow Catholics. Tolerance and minding one’s own business are good things.
“The Council called for a reformed liturgy to foster full, conscious participation”
Can you cite the exact documents of the Council itself that said the liturgy needed to be reformed, and specifically those that called for Latin to be banned in favor of the vernacular of all the many different countries and linguistic regiions because goodness knows that dozens and dozens of different languages is so much more unifying than a single language? Not to mention that banning the Mass and language that tied us to all the centuries before us seems far from being unifying; rather it rips us apart from all those many people who lived on earth before us.
Here you go: #50 of Sacrosanctum Concilium says, “The rite of the Mass is to be revised in such a way that the intrinsic nature and purpose of its several parts, as also the connection between them, may be more clearly manifested, and that devout and active participation by the faithful may be more easily achieved.”
Latin was not banned, but the Mass was definitely to be revised. The TLM, which is the unrevised Mass, should no longer be celebrated.
The revised Mass can be celebrated in Latin. No problem. But it should be the revised Mass, not the 1962 unrevised Mass. Vatican II called for the revision. Let’s obey Vatican II.
okey kokey. First, where does Vat 2 require obedience to anything? Where the anathemata?
Second, full active participation intends an active RECEPTIVITY to the grace of God inhering in the SACRAMENT of the Mass. It has nothing to do with clapping, laughing, chatting, or dancing to bad bawdy music. It has nothing to do with anything except participating in the union of God made flesh in the spirit of man. Educate yourself. “Thou should” not say what anyone else should not do. Who are you to judge?
No one did away with the Old Mass. The rite of the Mass was revised, as Council Fathers decreed. And yet the old rite remains. They did not decree that men such as you declare it dead. What’s your problem? Ask God to help you.
okey kokey. First, where does Vat 2 require obedience to anything? Where the anathemata?
Second, full active participation is an active RECEPTIVITY to the grace of God inhering in the SACRAMENT of the Sacrifice of the Mass. It has nothing to do with clapping, laughing, chatting, or dancing to bad bawdy music. It has everything to do with participating in the union of God made flesh in the spirit of man. Educate yourself.
No one did away with the Old Mass. The rite of the Mass was revised, as Council Fathers decreed. And yet the old rite remains. Council Fathers did not decree that men such as you declare it dead.
The Novus Ordo is not a revision of the TLM, and Bishop Bugnini did not follow Sancrosanctum Concilium as a guide when concocting his terrible liturgy. Moreover, the very idea of a Novus Ordo today is a pure fiction, the most divisive liturgy ever celebrated in the history of the Church. Not only has it eliminated the universality of liturgy, it has lowered the Roman Rite even below that of a “national” or “ethnic” rite – like the Byzantine Divine Liturgy – to become instead a purely diocesan or even parish-based worship service, just as prevails in all Protestant churches. In every parish, the Novus Ordo is different – often considerably so – from the Novus Ordo of every other parish. Just drive across the country on vacation if you want proof. The circus has come to town, but it’s a different circus in every town.
Indeed, one could probably be forgiven for suspecting that the 1965 Ordo Missae was closer to idea the council fathers were thinking of in SC. Then Bugnini completed his bait and switch.
Here’s an interesting take on the liturgical reform by a certain Fr. Josef Ratzinger in a letter to a colleague in 1976:
The problem of the new Missal lies in its abandonment of a historical process that was always continual, before and after St. Pius V, and in the creation of a completely new book, although it was compiled of old material, the publication of which was accompanied by a prohibition of all that came before it, which, besides, is unheard of in the history of both law and liturgy. And I can say with certainty, based on my knowledge of the conciliar debates and my repeated reading of the speeches made by the Council Fathers, that this does not correspond to the intentions of the Second Vatican Council. (Wolfgang Waldstein, “Zum motuproprio Summorum Pontificum”, in Una Voce Korrespondenz 38/3 [2008], 201–214)
Quoted at the New Liturgical Movement web site, January 2, 2023.
Hey Glenn,
That one and only Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger wrote, in 1992, in the Preface to the French edition of Msgr. Gamber’s “The Reform of the Roman Liturgy”:
“What happened after the Council was something else entirely: in the place of liturgy as the fruit of development came fabricated liturgy. We abandoned the organic, living process of growth and development over centuries, and replaced it—-as in a manufacturing process—-with a fabrication, a banal on-the-spot product….”
“Latin was not banned?”
There’s an understatement.
Sacrosanctum Concilium: “36. 1. Particular law remaining in force, the use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites.”
Not, “The use of the Latin language is to be dumped completely in favor of a completely vernacular Mass, and, in the case of English, one translated so poorly from the Latin that it doesn’t match what’s said in other countries.”
“The rite of the Mass is to be revised”
“Revised.” Not “changed completely”
It wasn’t changed completely. Stop misrepresenting tendatiously.
And, in acknowledging that Vatican II taught that the Mass was to be revised, you acknowledge that the Mass at the time — the 1962 Missal — was to be superseded by the revision. It has been superseded by the Missal of 1970.
Pope St. John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI do not agree with you that the 1962 Missal was no longer to be used; and both of them participated in the Second Vatican Council.
And yes, every part of the Mass was changed, with large portions cut out, some rearranged, bits added, multiple options given. And Latin discarded despite the Council documents saying that it was to be preserved.
Mr Honavar, thank you. The revised Mass should retain and proceed as written below.
Opening prayers at the foot of the altar.
Widespread use of Latin chant throughout the Mass, including the Gloria, Per Ipsum, and the Sanctus.
Ad-orientum posture (facing the altar) The concept of the priest facing the people was never a thing to begin with.
Generous use of incense.
Ad-Orientum
Yes, I’ll tell you this: if TC is rolled back and the TLM is given permanent protected status in parish liturgical celebrations, I will probably quit my job as a parish liturgical music director. If the Church can’t figure out how to celebrate the Mass, if it can’t commit to Vatican II’s call for liturgical reform, if it capitulates to pre-Conciliar crybabies, then it can do without my efforts. I’ll do something more lucrative with my life.
The solution is not to perpetuate an outmoded liturgical form. The solution is to celebrate the post-Conciliar liturgy properly.
It doesn’t need to be one or the other Mr Robert. Our local parish that celebrates the TLM also has NO Masses. Everyone gets along. It’s not a liturgy competition. Catholic means universal. Universal doesn’t exclude diversity.
You are correct, mrscracker. There are THOUSANDS of parishes in the USA that have an English language Mass AND a Spanish language Mass. If I were to attend the latter, I wouldn’t understand a word of it (it could as easily be said in Latin for that matter).
The parish near us that has both TLM and NO Masses also has a Mass in French occasionally. It’s all good.
🙂
The Church knows exactly how to pray the Mass. The Council Fathers of Vat 2 did declare a parish liturgical music director as the Determinator of all rubrics and Orders of the Commemoration of the Paschal Mystery of our Lord. You ARE free to choose the type and place of your source of bodily support. Godspeed.
Please do quit. You obviously know nothing about liturgy or the sacred music of the Church. Parish liturgical music directors with your frame of mind have been a plague since Vatican II. I was one myself, many years ago, mea culpa.
The Church knows exactly how to pray the Mass. The Council Fathers of Vat 2 did not declare a parish liturgical music director as the Determinator of all rubrics and Orders of the Commemoration of the Lord’s Paschal Mystery. You ARE free to choose the type and place of your source of bodily support. Godspeed.
Robert Honovar, you sound like a petulant child having a tantrum. I think you overvalue your importance as a parochial “liturgical music director.”
Sacred music directors, like me, are trying to restore beauty and propriety to the new Mass by introducing the proper chants at the entrance and at Communion instead of relying on the contemporary songs that a lot of parishes sing. If the new, reformed Mass were celebrated properly, in continuity with the Church’s liturgical tradition, then few people would see a need to seek out Masses celebrated using the obsolete 1962 Missal.
I understand why traditionalists seek out the older Mass. I’m trying to provide a solution in my parish that obviates that desire among traditionalists.
The Church needs to be faithful to tradition AND faithful to Vatican II.
I reiterate: if the Church fails to endorse the new Mass 100%, if it goes backward to endorse the 1962 Missal yet again, then I will conclude the Church has no idea what it’s about nor what it’s doing. This is a key moment to reiterate that Vatican II and the new Mass are the norm for the Roman Church’s liturgy and that the old Mass is going to be phased out of use completely.
The litugical reform is the most significant good thing to come out of Vatican Council II. There is no going back, there is no undoing it.
“The litugical reform is the most significant good thing to come out of Vatican Council II. There is no going back, there is no undoing it.” Frankly, it is astonishing (sad and comical) that there are still people out there who say insane things like this. Most of them are bishops or long-grayed boomers working in diocesan positions. The reality is that the Novus Ordo does not need any intervention. It is “undoing” itself. The liturgical wasteland has produced the greatest period of apostasy in the history of the Church. You must be proud.
Robert, I am in a similar situation as you are. I have spent a great amount of effort in trying to promote truly sacred music. The younger pastors are quite conservative and in time I think we will continue to see a great deal of the cheesy music purged from our liturgies. This is a good time, as you stated (especially with a new pope), to focus our energies on the new Mass by supporting good pastors and pushing back against the leftover 70’s faction that is mercifully aging out.
“I will probably quit my job as a parish liturgical music director.”
I shudder to think about what music you’re probably playing at the Masses, given your attitude.
“The solution is not to perpetuate an outmoded liturgical form.”
The Liturgy is not a fad or a fashion that goes out of style. And your contempt for the pre-Vatican II Mass is an insult to the Church and to the faithful of many centuries.
https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/pop-goes-the-mass
https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/bad-poetry-bad-theology
Robert, what exactly is the “proper” celebration of the “post-conciliar liturgy? The rubrics of the NO missal seem to allow for almost open-ended elasticity in the celebration of Mass, so that the priest/celebrant can legitimately give us the Missa/improv.
“TC is rolled back and the TLM is given permanent protected status in parish liturgical celebrations, I will probably quit my job as a parish liturgical music director.”
I believe you overestimate the dissuasive effects of your threat.
Deacon Dom!
How is this still even an issue, now that Bergoglio is gone?
Of course suppression of the valid Catholic Mass as it has been said for centuries is persecution. Cardinal Burke is absolutely right.
And how can the celebration of the valid Catholic Mass in the same form as was said during Vatican II be characterized as opposition to Vatican II?
Esteemed Deacon, I’m afraid this popesplanation of yours is a little too close to the mark. You’re actually starting to sound like Bergoglio.
😃😃
Now do Amy, Sebastian, Anthony K and Donald, and their late-coming ilk down below.
“Bergoglio” instead of Francis seems to be used mostly by people that are virtually sedevacantists.
DD, uniformity is a modernist lie. Any two TLMs look alike ; no two freemasonic Novus Ordos ressemble each other…
There was never uniformity in worship in Church history. Today there are 24 liturgical models in unity with the Pope.
Bergoglio’s intentions are today before St Peter. We can only rely on the verbal affirmations of his right hand hit-man Cardinal Roche on the uniformity of Novus Ordo :
“When the liturgy is mistaken for entertainment, it never truly works and often comes across as shallow to people.”
The restrictions imposed by Francis were indeed cruel and gratuitous as well as fallacious in re: the spirit of VII. One of many unchristian behaviors on his part.
Unity in worship is an interesting concept in a time when the language in which the Mass is said varies so widely.
This is detestable, even for you.
Again, it’s Cardinal Raymond Burke who dares pose the test of truth, and the integrity of the faith to a Roman pontiff. May he finally succeed with a positive response.
Fr. Peter -Definitive, not “positive”!
I take your an undercover language policeman. Definitive can be either or regarding heresy and orthodoxy. My thoughts were focused on a positive affirmation of Catholic doctrine.
I am also praying that Pope Leo XIV consciously guides the Church away from the notion of having to maintain one’s synodally synodal synodality in the journey through the synod of life.
Humanness has been redefined as Synodaliness. It’s epochal. We’ll all find out what it means after we all finish walking together. Although the timeline has not been disclosed.
So, Did you intend humor? If not, follow. Else stop.
There may good arguments for revising the 1962 liturgical calendar, but is this effective? “It’s been stuck in time since 1962.” A saint is perpetually a saint, and time is temporal as well as eternal. Sure, new saints have been added since 1962 and sure, Divine Mercy is a great feast. OTOH, there are only so many days in the year. Which shall we relegate to history’s dustbin? Surely not the celebration of the Sacred Heart of Jesus! [One of my favorite names is Mercy. A close second is Margaret Mary.]
Thank you for the gesture of allowing women to choose their fashion! No, people don’t have to dress as if they had just stepped out of the Dark Ages or off the farm. Neither do they have to ‘not’ dress as if they had just rolled out of bed. I’ve seen more than my share of that style! Thoughtful gesture, too, that, allowing women in dress pants or nice clothes! If you would, please, define “dress” pants. Define also “nice.” Then take a poll to see if we can get semi-universal agreement on deinitions.
If the rare orthodox Muslim woman or the rare ‘nun’ should dare to appear at a diocesan NO Mass, should we allow them in? Or should the feminine fashion police escort them to the nearest dressing room? We should also vote on where the permissive length of skirt would cease. Would that be two inches below the knee or three above the ankle? Should faded jeans, graphic tees, wrinkled, worn, and ripped flip-flops be forbidden? What if Mass is in Africa where neither climate nor poverty know closed toe shoes?
Stop.
Sorry I struck a few nerves, meiron and everyone. I’m mainly just tired of the “members only and fancy formal wear only” attitude that some TLM attendees have exhibited to the point where some Catholics who don’t wear head coverings or dress to the nines avoid the TLM out of fear (or frankly, disgust) of being looked down upon. I’m not accusing anyone on this page of that.
I was at a wedding last week (in a Novus Ordo parish) and the guest priest said a very reverent Mass with Latin ordinaries and tons of incense. The photographer (who I happen to know attends the TLM) was walking around the front area of the church near the altar DURING the Mass and even when the Eucharistic Prayer was being said. It was a huge distraction, and was hypocritical in my opinion. I don’t have anything against the TLM itself, it’s mainly the overall attitude of some people who regard the Novus Ordo as just a pee-on liturgy that I’m upset with.
Whether you attend the TLM, Novus Ordo or an Eastern Rite parish, we’re all Catholic and no liturgical rite is superior to the other.
I’ve spoken my piece. God bless you all, and God bless Pope Leo XIV.
Yes , we’re all Catholics and the Mass is not a competition sport with opposing teams and fans. It’s all good. Or at least it should be.
Well, I havent attended a Latin Mass in 60 years or more, so I dont have a dog in this fight. I am a woman who lectors at my parish which only has Novus Ordo Masses. I have seen far too many young women at Mass dressed in shorts or skirts up to their butt cheeks. Nothing is ever said. I understand that once when the pastor made an announcement about it, complaints flew to the Bishop. What a shame the Bishop lacked enough spine to back the pastor. To those who say ” at least they are in church”, you are missing the point. Dressing in a disrespectful manner in a church is not something that should be encouraged, ever, no matter which style Mass you attend.
As for the photographer cruising around the church during the wedding Mass, our pastor makes a clear announcement before he begins that he does not want to see cell phone filming during the Mass, nor indeed at any sacrament, including First Communions, etc., Nor are they to be walking around the church filming. Priests may not enjoy “confrontations” like this. But unless THEY spell out the rules clearly, (Hello??? Can you stop talking in church, can you genuflect when appropriate?? can you dress appropriately?? Can you wait until Mass is OVER to leave??) , we are going to get more and more of this bad behavior in church. You would imagine adult Catholics would know this stuff. By my observation, they do NOT. Secular life has gotten increasingly self absorbed, sloppy and selfish. Its time to announce they cannot bring that behavior into the church. If they stop attending, then obviously it could not have meant much to them to begin with.
Adult Catholics only know stuff if they learned it, and probably only if they were taught it. It’s been a generation or 4 since this stuff was widely taught.
I don’t see an alternative to pastors addressing it. We have a firmly established culture that says any layperson addressing it is judgmental, uncharitable, and holier-than-thou. There are ways to do this gently and kindly, but still clearly. There are also ways to lead by example (I heard of a pastor that put the kibosh on chattering before and after Mass in the nave – by coming in 10 min. before Mass and kneeling in front of the altar to pray.) It doesn’t need to be all confrontation, so much as it needs to be done. “It’s the job that’s never started as takes the longest to finish.” Not the job that is approached with a spirit of gentleness and meekness – that one gets done in good time.
meiron :I think we can expect more of members than that of visitors to our masses. Everyone is welcome to attend mass, but members should be held to a higher standard. The idea
of a moral cop at the door is a bit excessive. A member attending in inappropriate or revealing clothes, however, should be confronted privately and educated as to what is appropriate attire. If they continue to rebel they should be warned and then denied communion.
It is not out of order or unprecedented to have two different standards in the Church. As far as we know masses in the early Church differentiated between the members and those who were on the outside. Non menders attended only the first part of the mass and were asked to leave before the Eucharist.
Perhaps the real problem is that since Vatican II, teaching on modesty of dress has been lacking. A woman is not culpable for that what is lacking in her education. Perhaps the old Baltimore Catechism had its faults, but it did implant the basic truths in young minds as to what was right and what was wrong. It was one way of producing well a formed conscience. If the Church wants Deaconesses, this one very useful role for them. Uniform dress codes have been used by some of our “separated brethren “ – Amish, Mennonites and others- to some degree of success. Much like many of our religious orders they are silent witnesses to our secular society, a visual witness of our separation from ever changing worldly styles and standards. At the very least there example can teach us something about what modesty looks like. St. Paul’s teachings should also be considered and taught. Uniformity is not necessarily the answer, but we do need to teach about the basic of modesty and the need to consider the evils and consequences of lust. For example, expect our young priests to be pure but at the same time some of our very members are silently tempting them in close proximity.
In short let’s teach before we condemn.
Right.
DIDN’T THINK SO SAYS: “Yes, wear nice and modest clothes for Mass. But dress as if you live in 2025.”
meiron says: All who are alive, not mentally incapacitated, and getting dressed in 2025 obviously know that they are dressing and living in 2025.
THINK SO SAYS: “Make women’s veils optional”
meiron says: Yes. Where has it been mandated?
THINK SO SAYS: “…and remind people that they don’t have to dress like they just stepped out of an 1800’s Laura Ingalls Wilder book.”
meiron says: Where does that happen? And even if there is such a place, is that a problem?
THINK SO says: “It’s not wrong for a lady to wear dress pants to either an English or Latin Mass instead of a skirt that’s so long, the altar boys look like they’re wearing shorts.”
meiron says: WHAT TYPE OF PERSON observes the altar boys’ shorts? Parents or perverts?
Didn’t Think So didn’t touch my nerves, but apparently the TLM-er style of dress touched his/hers. Pity, that.
meiron:
You’re taking what I said and twisting it into a rude and misleading statement. This is what I wrote:
“It’s not wrong for a lady to wear dress pants to either an English or Latin Mass instead of a skirt that’s so long, the altar boys look like they’re wearing shorts”.
I meant that the dresses were so long, it made the cassocks look short. I should have worded and written more clearly and carefully.
I certainly DO NOT observe the servers shorts.
No offense to you, please calm down. I’m an honest, straight (thankfully) Catholic man.
One last thing I’d like say to you and everyone else is that Satan works among arguments and divisions like this. We don’t need to engage in liturgical bickering to give the devil fodder.
If you go to the TLM, fine. I don’t, and that’s fine too.
Right. I agree. Teaching is good. (I’m a teacher.) 😀
DIDN’T THINK SO SAYS: “Yes, wear nice and modest clothes for Mass. But dress as if you live in 2025.”
meiron says: I would hope that everyone alive, not mentally incapacitated, and getting dressed in 2025 would know they are dressing and living in 2025.
THINK SO SAYS: “Make women’s veils optional”
meiron says: Yes. Where has it been mandated?
THINK SO SAYS: “…and remind people that they don’t have to dress like they just stepped out of an 1800’s Laura Ingalls Wilder book.”
meiron says: Where does that happen? And even if there is such a place, is that a problem?
THINK SO says: “It’s not wrong for a lady to wear dress pants to either an English or Latin Mass instead of a skirt that’s so long, the altar boys look like they’re wearing shorts.”
meiron says: WHAT TYPE OF PERSON observes altar boys’ shorts? Parents or perverts?
Didn’t Think So didn’t touch my nerves, but apparently the TLM-er style of dress touched his/hers. Pity, that.
Headcoverings are optional since the 1983 Code of Canon Law. Which the trads ignore. They also ignore the Luminous mysteries of the rosary, since those are post-Vat 2. And Divine Mercy Sunday. And on and on. Then when they can’t attend a TLM, they traipse into our parish in their period clothing and look down their noses at the rest of us who are dressed modestly by 2025 standards, refuse to receive the Eucharist as “penance,” and generally lack any joy and charity. CWR comboxes are full of traddie nonsense and the full implementation of TC can’t come soon enough. It’s not the TLM, it’s the culture that has morphed from it.
Annie, it’s nice to know that I’m not the only one here that shares a similar viewpoint. The Latin Mass in and of itself is great. It’s a shame that many people have used the TLM as a weapon to wage war against the Vatican and the Novus Ordo, which DOES have its problems, but those will be fixed when, God willing, enough of the younger priests take over. (Unless they join the FSSP)
“I believe, however, that to bring out fully the Christological depth of the Rosary it would be suitable to make an addition to the traditional pattern which, while left to the freedom of individuals and communities, could broaden it to include the mysteries of Christ’s public ministry between his Baptism and his Passion.”
“In proposing to the Christian community five significant moments – “luminous” mysteries”
“This indication is not intended to limit a rightful freedom in personal and community prayer,”
John Paul II clearly didn’t mandate that the mysteries of light be included in the Rosary. He proposed them. So what’s your beef with ith people who choose not to include them?
I like to go to the TLM in Lewiston, Maine, which is about 55 miles from here, when I feel up to it. In the past when there I have spoken to people who make the trip from way up in northern Maine EVERY Sunday – about a 250 mile round trip.
Since Mass starts at 8:30 that would mean that they’re probably rising at around 5 a.m. to get the family up and ready to go. They probably leave home at around 5:30 for the 2 1/2 hour (EACH WAY) trip. About 20 minutes into the trip they pass the local Novus Ordo Church – Do the math.
Just leave us alone – we’re more than willing – even glad, to make the sacrifices necessary to get to the TLM.
Good for you Mr. Terence. That’s a long drive. We used to live where there were no Catholic churches within an hour’s drive. It’s a real commitment to do that on back roads. We had some seriously rough terrain to cover but at least not a 250 mile round trip. That’s impressive.
All that wasted fuel and time, not to mention wear and tear on the car, adds up to wasted money when a perfectly fine novus ordo Mass is within ten miles. Not to mention carbon emissions making the journey. Surely, Jesus does not want these families to waste so much time and money when a Mass is much closer. I don’t think it’s virtuous at all to drive 250 miles each way to go to a Mass when there’s one only twenty minutes away.
Families do weekend road trips all the time. Why not a road trip to a special Mass they prefer? Would that be a less worthy destination than a trip to Bucc-ees? My family would gladly make a 200 mile round trip to the nearest Bucc-ee’s just for the BBQ, jerky, & gift shop.
The late Hank Williams said it best about minding our own business & that’s something for us all to remember. Great song, too.
🙂
“5Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor?”
Maybe you’ve read the Bible. You seem to understand the sentiment, as Judas did, that one should not waste expensive perfume upon The Lord.
I hope he listens, and I don’t even attend the Tridentine Rite (and no plans to do so any time soon, actually).
Nor do I attend the Tridentine Mass. But, it is NOT a “Rite.” The TLM is the Extraordinary Form of the LATIN RITE. (The Novus Ordo is the Ordinary Form of the same Rite.)
Which is to say that for the Church to actually remove the TLM is like a self-administered lobotomy. And after which, the Catholic Church will pride itself in remembering nothing.
Like some of the amnesiac table talk at town hall synodal roundtables. Not even a memory of the actual provisions of the authorizing Second Vatican Council Constitution on the Liturgy. It is true, however, that much of the liturgical abuse (e.g., clown masses) in the early decades following the Council is now in the rear-view mirror.
Lord (if there is a Lord), spare us another plague of “liturgists,” or even more clericalization of the laity through another pandemic of “ministries” (conflated with the ministerial priesthood).
A Woodstock peace sign to y’all!
A high-fiver right back atcha’.
On November 19, 1969, in an Address to a General Audience, November 19, 1969, Pope Paul VI referred to the now so-called “ordinary form” of the Latin Rite this way:
“We wish to draw your attention to an event about to occur in the Latin Catholic Church: the introduction of the liturgy of the new rite of the Mass.”
He called it the “new rite”!
If by the Novus Ordo is meant a Mass that is prayed strictly according to the Roman Missal i.e. ONLY saying the Black exactly as printed and ONLY doing the Red exactly as it is printed, then it must be concluded that RARELY is a Novus Ordo Mass actually said. (I’ve never seen anywhere in the Roman Missal any instruction to: “ad lib or modify in any way you choose anything contained herein.”
Of course, my comment was meant to imply that 90% of the liturgical wars that have been fought since 1965 have been caused by priests & bishops who have never strictly conformed to what appears in the revised Roman Missal. That is to say they never strictly adhere to say ONLY WHAT APPEARS IN BLACK PRINT and to ONLY DO WHAT APPEARS IN RED PRINT.
If bishops and priests had adhered to strictly follow the Missal, we wouldn’t have had the liturgical circuses we’ve all been subjected to.
Novus Ordo means “new order.”
The NO and the Tridentine rite have two different calendars, different readings (because of the calendars), feasts, language, prayers, etc.
An honest person, or at least one from Mars with no skin in the game, would conclude that they are in fact two distinct rites (or liturgy if you prefer), both of which are currently celebrated by the Roman Catholic Church
No, the Roman Missal promulgated after Vatican Council II is a revision of the former Roman Missal of 1962. There is one Roman Rite whose Missal has been revised. The V2 Missal is the current iteration of the Roman Rite’s form of the Mass.
The pre-V2 Missal is obsolete, having been replaced by the V2 Missal.
There is no such thing as “extraordinary” and “ordinary” forms of the Mass. Please stop using that language, which was a legal fiction introduced by Benedict XVI and has been officially expunged by Pope Francis’s Traditionis Custodes.
There is one form of the Mass: the 1970 Missal, updated in 2008. That is the only form that should be used.
Mr Honavar,
Revised it was, by a freemason surrounded by protestant brothers. It’s fruits are catastrophic.
The TLM was forged by Sacred Tradition not the enemies of the Church.
Regards
Mr Cracked Nut
Mrs. Hess,
I agree. Pope Paul VI would likely do the same:
On November 19, 1969, in an Address to a General Audience, Pope Paul VI referred to the now so-called “ordinary form” of the Latin Rite this way:
“We wish to draw your attention to an event about to occur in the Latin Catholic Church: the introduction of the liturgy of THE NEW RITE OF THE MASS.” [Emphases added.] He also authorized use of the UA, thereby showing that the two ‘forms’ were in fact different species or two different things.
Honavar claims that Benedict invented “fiction” by assigning names to the different forms of the Roman Liturgy! By doing so, he would deny Benedict the freedom to express his rightful Church authority in words of his choosing. Then Honavar tells you to “Please stop using that language,…” as if he were the Determinator of Free Speech, Right Reason, or as if he were your Father/Dictator/Boss. May the good Lord set him right.
I think the Pope needs to be careful in reinstating the TLM. The previous FBI head and Administration considered it a breeding ground for Catholic terrorist. Who knows what is lurking in the hearts of TLM Catholics. If they get an upper hand, besides dressing reverently in Church, they will start restoring Catholic staples like saying the Rosary and The St Michael the Arch Angel prayer after Mass, not to mention Churches filled with incense.
Oh, Mike, please stop, you are terrifying me! The horror, the horror!
Excuse me, I must make my way to my fainting couch and make use of my smelling salts…
Dear Leslie. Get hold of yourself. This will pass. The Amazonia rite, a 2020 proposal of the Final Document of the Amazon Synod about how to develop an autochthonous liturgical rite by means of a committee that reflects the modern Western, rationalistic, indeed functionalistic, approach to liturgy – is on the way.
is coming soon.
Thanks, Mike, for making this fun!
Or Mr. Mike the TLM might scorn birth control, have many more children and eventually take over. An actual breeding ground.
Oh wait…
🙂
Again, the trad comments are displaying ignorance and incorrigibility. There is no pleasing them without giving in to their demands. Vatican II happened. The Roman Rite was updated and reformed. That’s the inconvenient truth for trads.
I’m convinced trads and regular Catholics will never get along. Pope Francis was right to issue Traditionis Custodes. Do away with the TLM. Let the trads self-deport.
May Pope Leo support TC.
Before and discussion on the new or old rite of mass, people should read Quo Peimum by the council of Trent.
For example:
“We order them in virtue of holy obedience to chant or to read the Mass according to the rite and manner and norm herewith laid down by Us and, hereafter, to discontinue and completely discard all other rubrics and rites of other missals, however ancient, which they have customarily followed; and they must not in celebrating Mass presume to introduce any ceremonies or recite any prayers other than those contained in this Missal”
And
“Therefore, no one whosoever is permitted to alter this notice of Our permission, statute, ordinance, command, precept, grant, indult, declaration, will, decree, and prohibition. Would anyone, however, presume to commit such an act, he should know that he will incur the wrath of Almighty God and of the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul.”
Obviously this document was ignored during VII
Quo Primum does not prevent future Church authority from changing the Mass of Paul V. Please, just stop it. The Missal of Paul V was ammended several times by popes before Vatican II. Please stop with the simplistic, fundamentalist, incorrect attempts to interpret magisterial documents.
Dear Mr Honavat,
Novos Ordo was by definition NEW.
That is a discontinuity which was recently affirmed by Cardinal Roche in a radio interview. He asserted that there is a New Theology requiring a New Mass.
Defending rupture is as anti-Catholic as the rupture.
Regards
Mr Cracked Nut
Is this website a trad site? It seems to be, based on the comments. I don’t like that. I thought it was a reliably centrist, orthodox Catholic website. If it’s becoming trad, I will probably put it on my avoid list, like I do with Rorate Caeli’s website.
Yes, Amy. I believe CWR is a trustworthy, orthodox Catholic site. That’s why I read it, comment here, & support it financially.
I’m not sure just what you mean by “centrist” but of course Christianity’s neither left, right, or center in secular, political, or ideological terminology.
Dear Amy,
The Centrist Catholic Church has been shaken into wake up mode by the persecution of Catholicism by Globalist New Church.
Amy, if George Orwell had written that in 1984 just one Cardinal was begging the Pope to cease the persecution of the faithful by the institution based in Rome he would have bern ridiculed.
Yet here we are in 2025.
God bless Amy
Mr Cracked Nut
I would not consider this a “trad site” but a “centrist” one like the NCRegister. Any topic concerned the Novus Ordo and the Tridentine Rite will get a TON of comments for an against.
“I don’t like that.”
I imagine there’s a lot of things that you dislike and your comity isn’t required.
Anyone who claims that Archbishop Bugnini was a freemason who infiltrated the Church to destroy it with the new Mass is out of his/her mind. Pope Francis was right about trad enclaves being dangerous and divisive. You see it every time this site posts a story about the liturgy. You see it above. What ignorance and hostility to Vatican 2. Thank God for Vatican 2 and the novus ordo Mass. Thank God for Traditionis Custodes.
Pope Leo will do the right thing and continue with the full implementation of Vatican 2’s liturgical reforms.
Dear Donald,
That Bugnini was a freemason is a catatsrophic fact revealed to Pope Paul VI after the promulgation of the New Mass. The full catastrophy has been unfolding ever since, with a Report known as the Gagnon Report hidden in the archives. In three volumes* it proves the infiltration of the institution.
Wake up is not easy. It is uncomfortable. But hiding the Gagnon Report under the carpet has not helped…
Regards
Mr Cracked Nut
* Murr, Murder in the 33rd Degree: the Gagnon investigation into Vatican Freemasonry.
Can’t speak to Archbishop Bugnini, although the rumors were there back in the 70s, but the fact that the Catholic clergy has been infiltrated by freemasonry is a demonstrable fact. It’s been in the news numerous times over the decades, and the people involved admitted it outright. It’s not a secret.
Anything Pope Leo does in regard to the liturgy can be reversed by a subsequent pope, as history tells us and as should be evident to any Catholic. The issue of the TLM is not going to go away. The issue has been here since the initial changes, and definitely since 1968, and is not going to let up. In fact, the issue has become more prominent due to the actions of Pope Francis.
Donald, in his memoirs, Fr. Louis Bouyer, who worked with Msgr. on the Concilium described him as a “mealy-mouthed scoundrel, as bereft of culture as he was basic honesty.” Would you also dismiss him as out of his mind?
Bouyer’s Memoirs are well worth reading:
https://angelicopress.com/products/the-memoirs-of-louis-bouyer
Well, reading these comments has been an interesting wade into tradland. (shudder) I conclude that Pope Francis was correct. I agree that the 1962 Missal should be suppressed. It engenders insular dissidence and opposition to Church authority. The trads only want what they want, which is to live in the past and avoid engaging with modernity, which is what Vatican II was all about. Driving 250 miles just to avoid a novus ordo Mass? Ridiculous. They have nostalgia for times long gone, as someone above put it. The SSPX is their church, not the Church of Rome.
Don’t you think it works both ways, Anthony?
People who have strong feelings are more incentivized to comment & sometimes those comments can be less than charitable. Do you first assume the best intentions in others? I know we can all fail in that.
It’s difficult to have conversations online but we have to proceed in charity & not project misunderstandings on our brothers & sisters in Christ. Does a family make a 250 mile round trip simply to *avoid* a NO mass or do they make that sacrifice because they love the TLM & it has a special meaning to them?
Why not be kind & tolerant to each other? God bless every Catholic family who attends Mass on Sunday & raises their children in the Faith. It’s all good. God bless you, too.
Dear Anthony,
The persecution of Catholicism will not change the events described in Fr Murr’s book Murder in the 33rd Degree.
The persecution of Catholicism will not change the fact that Novos Ordo was scripted by a freemason surrounded by protestant brothers.
Freedom to persecute those who by their very existence point to the untruth at the heart of Novos Ordo is truly Slavery.
Ignorance is strength ?
The situation is catastrophic. Truth or Untruth? What will it be? Is the Church today mature enough to face up to the Truth of the Gagnon Report and end the absurdity of self-persecution?
Regards
Mr Cracked Nut
Anthony, there really wasn’t any outcry from so-called “trads” until Pope Francis so abruptly and drastically curtailed the use of the 1962. Until that point, they had simply been doing what they wanted to do, and what Benedict XVI had so generously made possible. It was the intervention of the Pope, based on closed-door sessions with bishops who shared his hostility to the TLM, and unverified opinion surveys – reference but not cited – that generated the protests of those attched to the old rite.
Re the Latin Mass
I have my mother’s missal, brought from Belgium (a formerly Catholic country) when she immigrated in 1955. I don’t know why I was surprised to note that the Mass part was well-thumbed. Of course, then I realized she would have used it until at least 1970. And what a comfort it would have been to have the familiar Mass (Latin, with Flemish alongside – no doubt useful even after the switch to English). There is a benefit to having a universal sacred language.
Amen, Miss Cleo.
In a previous life I attended a Sunday Mass in Bruges. It was so long ago that I don’t even recall what language it was said in, but possibly Flemish?
It was weirdly eye-opening for me, when I first realized that at the TLM, the English-speakers used English missals, the Spanish-speakers used Spanish missals, and the French-speakers used French missals, all standing next to each other and worshiping at the same Mass.
Too used to everyone being segregated by language.
There is no getting around the fact that the pre-Vatican II Mass is the *FORMER* Roman Rite. It has been replaced. It should not — must not — be restored. I disagree with Cardinal Burke very strongly.
Those who prefer the former Roman Rite at least implicitly reject Vatican II and the popes’ authority over the liturgy. Many explicitcly reject Vatican II and the popes’ authority. I believe that when Pope Leo expresses his support for what Pope Francis did, the 1962 crowd will go apoplectic. They are hanging their hats on a pipe dream.
Dorothy, following the reasoning you use here, one has to conclude that, prior to VII, anyone advocating the reform of the liturgy and the introduction of new rites would be guilty of rejecting the Council of Trent and the Popes’ authority to promulgate the Roman missal of 1570 which prescribes the TLM.
I myself don’t reject the authority of Popes or Councils to mandate changes in the liturgy – VII was indeed a valid council, as were all of its decrees. But that does not mean that I’m also obliged to think that the reforms enacted on its authority – especially in the liturgy – were successful. On the whole, I’d rate them as a major flop that simply didn’t resemble the glowing predictions of the reformers prior to the Council.
But you’re perfectly fine with ignoring Pope Benedict XVI on the matter – and he actually attended the Council.
Dear Dorothy,
Truth cannot become Untruth.
Rome was infiltrated by Freemasonry. This is a fact attested by Rome’s inside investigation the Gagnon Report.
A freemason with the assistance of protestant brotherd scripted a New Mass for the Catholic Church.
Because Truth is Uncomfortable does not make it Untruth.
No amount of Parish closures will change the Truth, just as no amount of priest relocalisations removed the child abuse.
The only mature solution is to own up to the failed cover up.
Kind regards
Mr Cracked Nut
Do Popes lack the authority to authorize multiple Rites for the Mass?
Since 1965, i have attrnded maybe 3 or 4 Masses prayed using the Extraordinary Form so I not personally invested in it as my preferred mode of worship. That said, I LOATHE what liberties priests and bishops take when celebrating the Ordinary Form. In far too many cases it’s a disgrace and a sacrilege.
What I cannot wrap my arms around is the vitriol some purported Catholic contributors here express towards those who prefer to worship God via the Extraordinary Form. Frankly, I find your remarks disgusting and contemptible. My question to you is, “What’s so threatening to you that you feel a need to go on a tirade against those who prefer to worship differently than you? What are you afraid of? Are they banging on your doors and forcing you at gunpoint to accompany them to the Extraordinary Form. Why not just leave them alone? Everyone of us has our own salvation to work out. Why are you making it more difficult for those who are also members of the Body of Christ?”
“How does my gay marriage threaten you?”
“What are you afraid of, you homophobe?”
“Why do you go on a tirade against those who prefer to love differently than you?”
“Why not just leave them alone?”
“Why are you making it more difficult for gays who are also members of the Body of Christ?”
The arguments of the trads are exactly the same in form as those of the gays. Exactly.
Dissidence uses the same forms of argument, over and over again.
Sebastian: Seek out some help.
He got you good. You set yourself up for that one.
Sebastian, that has to be one of the most unusual arguments I’ve seen in the comment boxes.
The last time I checked, celebrating the Tridentine Rite was not a mortal sin, unlike sodomy.
Thanks, Diogenes. I’m not a regular TLM attendee, but I’ve nevertheless been on the receiving end of the vitriol you describe, especially from VII era clergy who are often spastic in their response to any mention of it. An interesting piece of work for some future psychologist, eh?
But isn’t that what the trads do? They poo-poo the Novus Ordo and verbally attack anyone with a differing opinion. Dorothy and others here can’t state their opinions? Why not? Why are trads now acting like victims? It is because they are full of fear because you know this TLM privilege is most likely coming to a close.
Projection much?
If people want to celebrate the Tridentine Rite at their own parish, what is it to you? How does it threaten you? There are Jesuits, Augustinians, Dominicans, Franciscans–various religious orders with their own “Rule” and no one says that the Augustinians are more (or less) Catholic than the Dominicans, and no one calls the Jesuits Protestants (possibly heretics these days, but no one calls them Protestants) because the Jesuits are different than the Franciscans.
.
So what if one parish chooses to celebrate the Tridentine Rite and another one the Novus Ordo and a third the Anglican Rite. Or if all three are celebrated at the same parish at different times of the week. You all can’t work together at the Lenten Fish Fry?
.
Mrs Hess:
There is no such thing as the Tridentine “Rite”. It’s the Tridentine Mass, which is the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Mass. One Mass, one liturgical rite, and 2 ways to celebrate the same Mass.
That way of thinking is wrong. 1962 and 1970 are not the same Mass, not the same liturgical form. They are different liturgical forms.
1970 is the current form; 1962 is the former form. Not the same thing.
Extraordinary and ordinary forms are not correct terms in reference to 1962 and 1970, respectively.
Better to say that the 1970 is the reformed, current Mass and the 1962 is the unreformed, former Mass.
The 1962 Missal is no longer an adequate liturgical expression of Catholic faith. That’s the crux of the matter. The 1962 Missal does not adequately express the priesthood of the baptized lay faithful, for one thing; it’s therefore ecclesiologically inferior to the reformed Mass, which does ritually express the priesthood of the lay faithful.
So what if one parish decides to celebrate both the unreformed Mass and the reformed Mass? Well, the problem is that such a parish would express liturgical dual personality disorder: preconciliar and postconciliar ecclesiologies and liturgies.
The 1962 Missal does not express post-Vatican II faith. That’s why trads like it: trads reject Vatican II.
The Church needs to make up its mind: we are either preconciliar or postconciliar. The two cannot coexist. Pope Francis saw that, which is why he issued Traditionis Custodes.
I’m confident that Pope Leo is of the same mind.
The Church must be firmly, unwaveringly committed to a postconciliar ecclesiology and liturgy and faith. That irritates the trads, but they can’t reverse or ignore Vatican II.
Robert, you said “trads reject Vatican II.
The Church needs to make up its mind: we are either preconciliar or postconciliar. The two cannot coexist. Pope Francis saw that, which is why he issued Traditionis Custodes.
I’m confident that Pope Leo is of the same mind.”
“trads as a diverse group do not reject Vatical II”. As for Pope Leo XIV, shortly after he took the Chair of Peter he met with a group of Eastern Rite Catholics. During his beautiful address he emphasized the importance and beauty of their sacred liturgies and stressed not to lose them. At that moment I became ‘confident’ that Pope Leo will discreetly bring back what Pope Benedict put in place to preserve the Church’s liturgical gems and appreciation for our Sacred roots. Focus on what we, as members of His Mystical Body bring to the Mass, no matter which form that we be in Holy Communion.
Annie,
No, most traditional Catholics just desire what their great-grandparents had: the ability to worship at the Mass of their ancestors in peace.
When one becomes certain that the Vetus Ordo is the Pearl of Great Price and the most perfect expression of the most important event in human history, they must share that love with others.
We always can grow in charity in sharing our love of the Ancient Mass.
My question for you and others as: why are so many prelates, priests, and pew-sitters so fearful of such a small minority?
But they’re wrong. The reformed Mass is an improvement upon the former Mass.
We’re not fearful of you. You’re just simply wrong about liturgy, and the former Mass is being phased out for the good of the unity of the Church.
It’s not about what preconciliarists want. It’s about what the faith and liturgy of the Church are.
The Church’s tradition has evolved, as all traditions do. The current, reformed Mass is the traditional Roman Rite in its new form. There is one Mass of the Roman Rite, and it’s the Missal of 1970.
The former Mass is not the traditional Mass; it’s the outdated, obsolete form of the Mass. What is obsolete is going away.
“The Church’s tradition has evolved, as all traditions do. The current, reformed Mass is the traditional Roman Rite in its new form. There is one Mass of the Roman Rite, and it’s the Missal of 1970.” “What is obsolete is going away.”
The old Roman Mass isn’t going anywhere. It has been here for centuries, it was the Mass of Vatican II, and it is still here.
What is lacking in the above assessment is an acknowledgment that a future pope can come along and undo all the purported “reforms” of the Roman Mass, declare the 1970 missal obsolete, and reinstate, as the norm, the ancient form.
A person who does not think that is possible does not know the history of the Catholic Church. The Pope Formosus et seq pontificates tell us that.
Of course it’s possible for a future pope to do that. I readily acknowledge that. The flip side is that it’s already been done with regard to the TLM, yet the trads won’t accept that decision. They think the TLM is exempt and above magisterial authority.
Sebastian,
Why do you spend so much time defending yourself and a super-majority of Catholics against a tiny minority of Catholics, if you are not fearful?
Are you trying to evangelize or re-indoctrinate?
My own observation is that like the organist who posted above, a true return to tradition, would cause some sort of loss for them. So many aging lay-folk would lose positions of power in parishes and think they are not “contributing” if the TLM reappeared at every parish.
With the New Mass, many have assumed a paradigm shift, —which is impossible for Catholics— to a new morality. (Re)Assenting to traditional (read actual) morality means a metanoia for many.
This small minority is trying to regain the morality and liturgy ( they always go hand in hand) that was lost at some point in the past (the median year might be around 1970). This is NOT going backward through easy terrain as some have purported. This is going through an utter Wasteland to the bottom of a sheer cliff and attempting to climb up with little human support and much wreckage everywhere.
Yet, this is the Spiritual life, the Lord and His blessed Mother will be ever-present.
Ave Maria!
Such wisdom is rarely revealed. Thank you, Joseph. Praise Jesus Christ, The Lord.
Thank you. Dio Re.
“The prelate also criticized the 2019 Synod on the Pan-Amazon Region convened by Pope Francis, saying parts of the agenda appeared “contrary” to Catholic teaching.”
I’ll say! Banning any discussion on the practice of burying children alive does tend to be “contrary” to God’s teaching.
Here is the video of the June 14 London conference organized by The Latin Mass Society of England and Wales. Their 60th anniversary according to LIFESITE. Cardinal Burke comes in at the end.
Bishop Schneider is at the start with the most upbraiding instruction on synods. I would add, enervating. The Lord has made me live to see this.
Bless the Lord.
Latin Mass Society’s Faith and Culture Conference
June 14 2025
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8NKpiygUC-g
https://www.lifesitenews.com/analysis/cardinal-burke-says-he-spoke-to-pope-leo-about-ending-persecution-of-latin-mass-faithful/
Thank you for that link to the Lifesitenews article. The comments thread below the article was just as stridently and condescendingly cultish as this one is. TLM is a cult.
It would be best if the trads would come on board the new Mass. If they won’t, then it’s best that we shake the dust off our feet and say goodbye to them. They can go to the SSPX fake church.
The word cult has a positive sense and usage in the Catholic faith.
Mass conversion worked by the BVM has always been in context of the Mass of the Ages.
Sr. Lucia’s vision is the Mass of the Ages.
JPII made the Guadalupana Patroness of the Americas and I put it to the Church that Juan Diego can be made Patron of Evangelizations of Indigenous Peoples worldwide for all time.
So why did they call it the Novus (new) ordo (order) and opposed to the Correctus (revised, corrected) ordo?
.
Going to a Byzantine Church I am not sure why the problem with admitting the Roman Church has two legitimate rites/liturgies/worship-service/Mass (whatever word that a person wants to use). In the Byzantine Church, there is the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom and the Liturgy of St. Basil. To an “outsider” they are identical. A Byzantine, however, will recognize the “extra flowery verbiage” of St. Basil and that the Lit of St. Basil is used at certain times of the Liturgical year.
MrsHess: You’ve made a very valid point about different Rites among Byzantine Catholics. Reading what you wrote makes me think with all the heat generated and the little light shining on the topic that the Liturgy Wars has NOTHING to do with religion or the worship of God. It has EVERYTHING to do with cultural preferences (and in some cases, with disordered sexual attractions).
My guess is “tribal,” and people want to worship with like-minded folks. There are definitely factions/tribes in the US Church.
I think we have a Church since the mid 1960’s that injested the ethos of the dominant culture. Instead of the Church evangelizing the culture, the culture evangelized the Church. Not exactly like Christ intended, I’m afraid.
There’s plenty of light if you know where and whom to read. I won’t let you get away with ad hominems. When people resort to ad hominems, you know that they don’t have an argument nor facts nor logic on their side.
Preconciliarism is not the future of the Catholic Church. Accept Vatican II. Accept the liturgical reform. That’s the way forward. That’s the future.
Fr. James Jackson, FSSP was sentenced to six years in jail for child porn offenses.
Fr. Jackson celebrated the TLM and hated Vatican II.
Don’t throw stones in glass houses.
Dorothy, just how low can you go. The gutter is no place for a follower of Christ.
You’re the one who cast aspersions on the pro-Vatican 2 side of the “liturgy wars” by saying they, in some cases, had disordered sexual attractions.
I merely pointed out that the TLM side of the “liturgy wars” has its own perverts.
Mrs Hess:
There are 14 different sui iuris (self governing) Churches that use the Byzantine Rite.
The Divine Liturgies of Sts John Chrysostom and Basil the Great are two different ways to celebrate the one same liturgical rite. (Not counting the Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts, attributed to St Gregory of Nyssa, but is certainly part of the Byzantine Rite.) The TLM and the Novus Ordo have also 2 ways to celebrate the same one Roman Rite. The big two differences is that the TLM can be celebrated anytime, unlike Basil’s Liturgy, which is only 10 times a year. Secondly, a separate form isn’t a rite because it’s already part of that particular Church’s specific Rite.
There are 24 Churches, 6 Rites, and numerous ways and forms to celebrate the same Rite.
There are 7 different rites in the Catholic Church: Latin, Byzantine, Alexandrian, Syriac, Armenian, Maronite, and Chaldean.
There are 6 different rites in the Catholic Church.
From the Ascension Press website:
Latin, Alexandrian, West Syrian, (also called Antiochene) Armenian, East Syrian, (also called Chaldean) and Byzantine.
The sui iuris Maronite Church is part of the West Syriac Rite.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church (which has a little more weight than a book outlet’s website) lists the rites as seven.
1203 The liturgical traditions or rites presently in use in the Church are the Latin (principally the Roman rite, but also the rites of certain local churches, such as the Ambrosian rite, or those of certain religious orders) and the Byzantine, Alexandrian or Coptic, Syriac, Armenian, Maronite and Chaldean rites.
OK, I stand corrected. The Ascension Press article was from 2019. Must’ve been while the Maronites were part of the West Syrian Rite. That’s why I always thought it was 6.
I guess it depends on how you define the word “rite”
Right!
St. Paul VI called it the Novus Ordo Missae when he promulgated it – the New Order of the Mass. That is why it gets called the Novus Ordo now. People thinking that’s insulting should maybe consider whether the Pope insulted it at its promulgation.
Eventually it’ll start sounding a bit like “modern art”, given modern technically means the present and modern art is stuck in time, but that doesn’t seem to slow anyone down. 🙂
Mrs. Cracker above (8:16) – Thanks for your comments.
You very possibly attended a Mass in Flemish in Bruges, since Bruges (aka Brugge) is in the Flemish part of Belgium.
Thank you Miss Cleo for that information. It was a beautiful place to visit.
Hey, hey. Ho, ho. The TLM has got to go.
The questions, Emoji, is for what and whose purposes?
Some here need to consider whether their attachment to the TLM is sinful. Ponder that. The notion will strike the superficially devout as preposterous, but those souls who are genuinely open to spiritual growth will realize that sinful attachment to the TLM is indeed a possibility.
I would imagine the same could be said for the Novus Ordo
I’m trying to ponder the strangeness of some comments i read in this thread Miss Dorothy. What possible benefit is there in causing division and suspicion?
We’re all supposed to be on the same side. We can dress, pray, and worship a little differently as members of a universal Church.
Dorothy, are you being sarcastic?
Her point is probably about obedience. I bet there are some, perhaps many, SSPX clergy and lay whose attachment to traditionalism, including to the former Mass, is sinful because it’s a manifestation of disobedience to the magisterium. The same can hold true for full-communion Catholics attached to the former Mass.
There can be invincible ignorance, of course. But if someone is attending the former Mass because he rejects the post Vatican II liturgical reforms outright, that is a cause for concern, as Pope Francis mentioned, and as even Pope Benedict affirmed when he said in his letter accompanying Summorum Pontificum that clergy must not in principle exclude celebrating the new Mass.
There are some clergy and lay who are, as a matter principle, unwilling to celebrate the new Mass. Those would be guilty of sinful attachment to the former Mass.
“Those would be guilty of sinful attachment to the former Mass.”
According to whom? What is the source for this statement? What official document of the Church states this?
Is this just an opinion? If so, by whose authority is it held?
Rejecting the teaching authority of the church is a sin. The magisterium has taught that the Missal of 1970 is the new Mass of the Roman Rite. Unwillingness to accept that teaching about the new Mass constitutes a rejection of the Church’s teaching authority. Therefore, unwillingness to celebrate the new Mass because someone does not accept the legitimacy of that Mass is sinful.
It’s a matter of logical deduction from the premise that rejecting Church authority is a sin. From the general to the particular.
There are countless trad websites that deny the legitimacy of the new Mass, and countless trads would skip attending a novus ordo Mass on Sunday if there were no TLM available and the novus ordo Mass was their only option. That’s sinful. But that’s the sort of thinking that TLM communities encourage and foster.
Some here need to consider whether their hatred of the Mass as it was said for centuries is sinful. Ponder that.
Using your reasoning.
Some here need to consider whether their ignorance in commenting is sinful. Ponder that. The notion will strike the superficial commenters as preposterous, but those souls who are genuinely open to spiritual growth will realize that sinful attachment to assertively ignorant commenting is indeed a possibility.
There; fixed it for you.