Aboard the papal plane, Mar 8, 2021 / 03:00 pm (CNA).- Please read below for CNA’s full transcript of Pope Francis’ in-flight press conference from Baghdad, Iraq, to Rome, Italy on March 8, 2021.
Pope Francis: First of all, thank you for your work, your company, your fatigue. Then, today is Women’s Day. Congratulations to the women. Women’s Day. But they were saying why is there no Men’s Day? Even when [I was] in the meeting with the wife of the president. I said it was because us men are always celebrated and we want to celebrate women. And the wife of the president spoke well about women, she told me lovely things today, about that strength that women have to carry forward life, history, the family, many things. Congratulations to everyone. And third, today is the birthday of the COPE journalist. Or the other day. Where are you?
Matteo Bruni, Holy See press office director: It was yesterday.
Pope Francis: Best wishes and we should celebrate it, right? We will see how we can [do it] here. Very well. Now, the word is yours.
Bruni: The first question comes from the Arabic world: Imad Atrach of Sky News Arabia.
Imad Abdul Karim Atrach (Sky News Arabia): Holiness, two years ago in Abu Dhabi there was the meeting with the Imam al-Tayyeb of al-Azhar and the signing of the document on human fraternity. Three days ago you met with al-Sistani. Are you thinking to something similar with the Shiite side of Islam? And then a second thing about Lebanon, which St. John Paul II said is more than a country, it is a message. This message, unfortunately, as a Lebanese, I tell you that this message is now disappearing. Can we think a future visit by you to Lebanon is imminent?
Pope Francis: The Abu Dhabi document of February 4 was prepared with the grand imam in secret during six months, praying, reflecting, correcting the text. It was, I will say, a little assuming but take it as a presumption, a first step of what you ask me about.
Let’s say that this [Ed. meeting with al-Sistani] would be the second [step] and there will be others. It is important, the journey of fraternity. Then, the two documents. The Abu Dhabi one created a concern for fraternity in me, Fratelli tutti came out, which has given a lot. We must… both documents must be studied because they go in the same direction, they are seeking fraternity.
Ayatollah al-Sistani has a phrase which I expect to remember well. Every man… men are either brothers for religion or equals for creation. And fraternity is equality, but beneath equality we cannot go. I believe it is also a cultural path.
We Christians think about the Thirty Years’ War. The night of St. Bartholomew [Ed. St. Bartholomew’s Day massacre], to give an example. Think about this. How the mentality has changed among us, because our faith makes us discover that this is it: the revelation of Jesus is love, charity, and it leads us to this. But how many centuries [will it take] to implement it? This is an important thing, human fraternity. That as men we are all brothers and we must move forward with other religions.
The [Second] Vatican Council took a big step forward in [interreligious dialogue], also the later constitution, the council for Christian unity, and the council for religious dialogue — Cardinal Ayuso accompanies us today — and you are human, you are a child of God and you are my brother, period. This would be the biggest indication. And many times you have to take risks to take this step. You know that there are some critics who [say] “the pope is not courageous, he is an idiot who is taking steps against Catholic doctrine, which is a heretical step.” There are risks. But these decisions are always made in prayer, in dialogue, asking for advice, in reflection. They are not a whim and they are also the line that the [Second Vatican] Council has taught us. This is his first question.
The second: Lebanon is a message. Lebanon is suffering. Lebanon is more than a balance. It has the weakness of the diversity which some are still not reconciled to, but it has the strength of the great people reconciled like the fortress of the cedars. Patriarch Rai asked me to please make a stop in Beirut on this trip, but it seemed somewhat too little to me: A crumb in front of a problem in a country that suffers like Lebanon. I wrote a letter and promised to make a trip to Lebanon. But Lebanon at the moment is in crisis, but in crisis — I do not want to offend — but in a crisis of life. Lebanon is so generous in welcoming refugees. This is a second trip.
Bruni: Thank you, Your Holiness. The second question comes from Johannes Neudecker of the German news agency Dpa.
Johannes Neudecker (Deutsche Presse-Agentur): Thank you, Holy Father. My question is also about the meeting with al-Sistani. In what measure was the meeting with al-Sistani also a message to the religious leaders of Iran?
Pope Francis: I believe it was a universal message. I felt the duty of this pilgrimage of faith and penance to go and find a great man, a wise man, a man of God. And just listening to him you perceived this. And speaking of messages, I will say: It is a message for everyone, it is a message for everyone. And he is a person who has that wisdom and also prudence… he told me that for 10 years, “I do not receive people who come to visit me with also other political or cultural aims, no… only for religious [purposes].” And he was very respectful, very respectful in the meeting. I felt very honored; he never gets up even to greet people. He got up to greet me twice. A humble and wise man. This meeting did my soul good. He is a light. These wisemen are everywhere because God’s wisdom has been spread all over the world.
It also happens the same with the saints, who are not only those who are on the altars, they are the everyday saints, the ones I call “next-door saints.” Men and women who live their faith, whatever it may be, with coherence. Who live human values with coherence, fraternity with coherence. I believe that we should discover these people, highlight them, because there are so many examples. When there are scandals in the Church, many, this does not help, but we show the people seeking the path of fraternity. The saints next door. And we will find the people of our family, for sure. For sure a few grandpas, a few grandmas.
Eva Fernandez (Radio COPE): Holy Father, it is great to resume the press conferences again. It is very good. My apologies, but my colleagues have asked me to ask this question in Spanish.
[In Spanish] During these days your trip to Iraq has had a great impact throughout the world. Do you think that this could be the trip of your pontificate? And also, it has been said that it was the most dangerous. Have you been afraid at some point during this trip? And soon we will return to travel and you, who are about to complete the eighth year of your pontificate, do you still think it will be a short [pontificate]? And the big question always for the Holy Father, will you ever return to Argentina? Will Spain still have hope that one day the pope will visit?
Pope Francis: Thank you, Eva, and I made you celebrate your birthday twice — once in advance and another belated.
I start with the last question, which is a question that I understand. It is because of that book by my friend, the journalist and doctor, Nelson Castro. He wrote a book on [the history of] presidents’ illnesses, and I once told him, already in Rome, “But you have to do one on the diseases of the popes because it will be interesting to know the health issues of the popes — at least of some who are more recent.”
He started [writing] again, and he interviewed me. The book came out. They tell me it is good, but I have not seen it. But he asked me a question: “If you resign” — well, if I will die or if I will resign — “If you resign, will you return to Argentina or will you stay here?”
I said: “I will not go back to Argentina.” This is what I have said, but I will stay here in my diocese. But in that case, this goes together with the question: When will I visit Argentina? And why have I not gone there? I always answer a little ironically: “I spent 76 years in Argentina, that’s enough, isn’t it?”
But there is one thing. I do not know why, but it has not been said. A trip to Argentina was planned for November 2017 and work began. It was Chile, Argentina, and Uruguay. This was at the end of November. But then at that time there was an election campaign happening in Chile because on that day in December the successor of Michelle Bachelet was elected. I had to go before the government changed, I could not go [further].
So let us do this: Go to Chile in January. And then in January it was not possible to go to Argentina and Uruguay because January is like our August here, it is July and August in both countries. Thinking about it, the suggestion was made: Why not include Peru, because Peru was bypassed during the trip to Ecuador, Bolivia, Paraguay, and remained apart. And from this was born the January trip between Chile and Peru.
But this is what I want to say so that you do not create fantasies of “patriaphobia.” When there are opportunities, it must be done, right? Because there is Argentina and Uruguay and the south of Brazil, which are a very great cultural composition.
About my travels: I make a decision about my trips by listening. The invitations are many. I listen to the advice of the counselors and also to the people. Sometimes someone comes and says: What do you think? Should I go or not? And it is good for me to listen. And this helps me to make the decision later.
I listen to the counselors and in the end I pray. I pray and I think a lot. I have reflected a lot about some trips, and then the decision comes from within. It is almost spontaneous, but like a ripe fruit. It is a long way, isn’t it? Some are more difficult, some are easier, and the decision about this trip comes early.
The first invitation of the ambassador, first, that pediatrician doctor who was the ambassador of Iraq, very good. She persisted. And then came the ambassador to Italy who is a woman of battle. Then the new ambassador to the Vatican came and fought. Soon the president came. All these things stayed with me.
But there is one thing behind my decision that I would like to mention. One of you gave me a Spanish edition [of the book] “The Last Girl.” I have read it in Italian, then I gave it to Elisabetta Piqué to read. Did you read it? More or less it is the story of the Yazidis. And Nadia Murad tells about terrifying things. I recommend that you read it. In some places it may seem heavy, but for me this was the trasfondo of God, the underlying reason for my decision. That book worked inside me. And also when I listened to Nadia who came to tell me terrible things. Then, with the book… All these things together made the decision; thinking about all the many issues. But finally the decision came and I took it.
And, about the eighth year of my pontificate. Should I do this? [He crosses his fingers.] I do not know if my travel will slow down or not. I only confess that on this trip I felt much more tired than on the others. The 84 [years] do not come alone, it is a consequence. But we will see.
Now I will have to go to Hungary for the final Mass of the Eucharistic Congress, not a visit to the country, but just for the Mass. But Budapest is a two-hour drive from Bratislava, why not make a visit to Slovakia? I do not know. That is how they are thinking. Excuse me. Thank you.
Bruni: Thank you, Eva. Now the next question is from Chico Harlan of the Washington Post.
Chico Harlan (Washington Post): Thank you, Holy Father. I will ask my question in English with the help of Matteo. [In English] This trip obviously had extraordinary meaning for the people who got to see you, but it did also lead to events that caused conditions conducive to spreading the virus. In particular, unvaccinated people packed together singing. So as you weigh the trip, the thought that went into it and what it will mean, do you worry that the people who came to see you could also get sick or even die. Can you explain that reflection and calculation. Thank you.
Pope Francis: As I said recently, the trips are cooked over time in my conscience. And this is one of the [thoughts] that came to me most, “maybe, maybe.” I thought a lot, I prayed a lot about this. And in the end I freely made the decision. But that came from within. I said: “The one who allows me to decide this way will look after the people.” And so I made the decision like this but after prayer and after awareness of the risks, after all.
Bruni: The next question comes from Philippine de Saint-Pierre of the French press.
Philippine de Saint-Pierre (KTO): Your Holiness, we have seen the courage and dynamism of Iraqi Christians. We have also seen the challenges they face: the threat of Islamist violence, the exodus of Christians, and the witnesss of the faith in their environment. These are the challenges facing Christians through the region. We spoke about Lebanon, but also Syria, the Holy Land, etc. The synod for the Middle East took place 10 years ago but its development was interrupted with the attack on the Baghdad cathedral. Are you thinking about organizing something for the entire Middle East, be it a regional synod or any other initiative?
Pope Francis: I’m not thinking about a synod. Initiatives, yes — I am open to many. But a synod never came to mind. You planted the first seed, let’s see what will happen. The life of Christians in Iraq is an afflicted life, but not only for Christians. I came to talk about Yazidis and other religions that did not submit to the power of Daesh. And this, I don’t know why, gave them a very great strength. But there is a problem, like you said, with emigration. Yesterday, as we drove from Qaraqosh to Erbil, there were lots of young people and the age level was low, low, low. Lots of young people. And the question someone asked me: But these young people, what is their future? Where will they go? Many will have to leave the country, many. Before leaving for the trip the other day, on Friday, 12 Iraqi refugees came to say goodbye to me. One had a prosthetic leg because he had escaped under a truck and had an accident… so many escaped. Migration is a double right. The right to not emigrate and the right to emigrate. But these people do not have either of the two. Because they cannot not emigrate, they do not know how to do it. And they cannot emigrate because the world squashes the consciousness that migration is a human right.
The other day — I’ll go back to the migration question — an Italian sociologist told me, speaking about the demographic winter in Italy: “But within 40 years we will have to import foreigners to work and pay pension taxes.” You French are smarter, you have advanced 10 years with the family support law and your level of growth is very large.
But immigration is experienced as an invasion. Because he asked, yesterday I wanted to receive Alan Kurdi’s father after Mass. This child is a symbol for them. Alan Kurdi is a symbol, for which I gave a sculpture to FAO [the Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations]. It is a symbol that goes beyond a child who died in migration. He is a symbol of dying civilizations, which cannot survive. A symbol of humanity. Urgent measures are needed so that people have work in their place and do not have to emigrate. And also measures to safeguard the right to emigrate. It is true that every country must study well the ability to receive [immigrants], because it is not only about receiving them and leaving them on the beach. Receive them, accompany them, help them progress, and integrate them. The integration of immigrants is key.
Two anecdotes: Zaventem, in Belgium: the terrorists were Belgians, born in Belgium, but from ghettoized, non-integrated Islamic immigrants. Another example: when I went to Sweden, during the farewell ceremony, there was the minister, of what I don’t know, [Ed. Alice Bah-Kuhnke, Swedish Minister of Culture and Democracy from 2014 to 2019], she was very young, and she had a distinctive appearance, not typical of Swedes. She was the daughter of a migrant and a Swede, and so well integrated that she became minister [of culture]. Looking at these two things, they make you think a lot, a lot, a lot.
I would like to thank the generous countries. The countries that receive migrants, Lebanon. Lebanon was generous with emigrants. There are two million Syrians there, I think. And Jordan — unfortunately, we will not pass over Jordan because the king is very nice, King Abdullah wanted to pay us a tribute with the planes in passage. I will thank him now — Jordan has been very generous [with] more than one and a half million migrants, also many other countries… to name just two. Thank you to these generous countries. Thank you very much.
Matteo Bruni: The next question is in Italian from the journalist Stefania Falasca.
Stefania Falasca (Avvenire): Good morning, Holy Father. Thank you. In three days in this country, which is a key country of the Middle East, you have done what the powerful of the earth have been discussing for 30 years. You have already explained what was the interesting genesis of your travels, how the choices for your travels originate, but now in this juncture, can you also consider a trip to Syria? What could be the objectives from now to a year from now of other places where your presence is required?
Pope Francis: Thank you. In the Middle East only the hypothesis, and also the promise is for Lebanon. I have not thought about a trip to Syria. I have not thought about it because the inspiration did not come to me. But I am so close to the tormented and beloved Syria, as I call it. I remember from the beginning of my pontificate that afternoon of prayer in St. Peter’s Square. There was the rosary, adoration of the Blessed Sacrament. And how many Muslims with carpets on the ground were praying with us for peace in Syria, to stop the bombing, at that moment when it was said that there would be a fierce bombing. I carry Syria in my heart, but thinking about a trip, it has not occurred to me at this moment. Thank you.
Matteo Bruni: Thank you. The next question comes from Sylwia Wysocka of the Polish press.
Sylwia Wysocka (Polish Press Agency): Holy Father, in these very difficult 12 months your activity has been very limited. Yesterday you had the first direct and very close contact with the people in Qaraqosh: What did you feel? And then, in your opinion, now, with the current health system, can the general audiences with people, with faithful, recommence as before?
Pope Francis: I feel different when I am away from the people in the audiences. I would like to restart the general audiences again as soon as possible. Hopefully the conditions will be right. I will follow the norms of the authorities in this. They are in charge and they have the grace of God to help us in this. They are responsible for setting the rules, whether we like them or not. They are responsible and they have to be so.
Now I have started again with the Angelus in the square, with the distances it can be done. There is the proposal of small general audiences, but I have not decided until the development of the situation becomes clear. After these months of imprisonment, I really felt a bit imprisoned, this is, for me, living again.
Living again because it is touching the Church, touching the holy people of God, touching all peoples. A priest becomes a priest to serve, to serve the people of God, not for careerism, right? Not for the money.
This morning in the Mass there was [the Scripture reading about] the healing of Naaman the Syrian and it said that Naaman wanted to give gifts after he had been healed. But he refused… but the prophet Elisha refused them. And the Bible continues: the prophet Elisha’s assistant, when they had left, settled the prophet well and running he followed Naaman and asked for gifts for him. And God said, “the leprosy that Naaman had will cling to you.” I am afraid that we, men and women of the Church, especially we priests, do not have this gratuitous closeness to the people of God which is what saves us.
And to be like Naaman’s servant, to help, but then going back [for the gifts.] I am afraid of that leprosy. And the only one who saves us from the leprosy of greed, of pride, is the holy people of God, like what God spoke about with David, “I have taken you out of the flock, do not forget the flock.” That of which Paul spoke to Timothy: “Remember your mother and grandmother who nursed you in the faith.” Do not lose your belonging to the people of God to become a privileged caste of consecrated, clerics, anything.
This is why contact with the people saves us, helps us. We give the Eucharist, preaching, our function to the people of God, but they give us belonging. Let us not forget this belonging to the people of God. Then begin again like this.
I met in Iraq, in Qaraqosh… I did not imagine the ruins of Mosul, I did not imagine. Really. Yes, I may have seen things, I may have read the book, but this touches, it is touching.
What touched me the most was the testimony of a mother in Qaraqosh. A priest who truly knows poverty, service, penance; and a woman who lost her son in the first bombings by ISIS gave her testimony. She said one word: forgiveness. I was moved. A mother who says: I forgive, I ask forgiveness for them.
I was reminded of my trip to Colombia, of that meeting in Villavicencio where so many people, women above all, mothers and brides, spoke about their experience of the murder of their children and husbands. They said, “I forgive, I forgive.” But this word we have lost. We know how to insult big time. We know how to condemn in a big way. Me first, we know it well. But to forgive, to forgive one’s enemies. This is the pure Gospel. This is what touched me the most in Qaraqosh.
Matteo Bruni: There are other questions if you want. Otherwise we can…
Pope Francis: How long has it been?
Bruni: Almost an hour.
Pope Francis: We have been talking for almost an hour. I don’t know, I would continue, [joking] but the car… [is waiting for me.] Let’s do, how do you say, the last one before celebrating the birthday.
Matteo Bruni: The last is by Catherine Marciano from the French press, from the Agence France-Presse.
Catherine Marciano (AFP): Your Holiness, I wanted to know what you felt in the helicopter seeing the destroyed city of Mosul and praying on the ruins of a church. Since it is Women’s Day, I would like to ask a little question about women… You have supported the women in Qaraqosh with very nice words, but what do you think about the fact that a Muslim woman in love cannot marry a Christian without being discarded by her family or even worse. But the first question was about Mosul. Thank you, Your Holiness.
Pope Francis: I said what I felt in Mosul a little bit en passant. When I stopped in front of the destroyed church, I had no words, I had no words… beyond belief, beyond belief. Not just the church, even the other destroyed churches. Even a destroyed mosque, you can see that [the perpetrators] did not agree with the people. Not to believe our human cruelty, no. At this moment I do not want to say the word, “it begins again,” but let’s look at Africa. With our experience of Mosul, and these people who destroy everything, enmity is created and the so-called Islamic State begins to act. This is a bad thing, very bad, and before moving on to the other question — A question that came to my mind in the church was this: “But who sells weapons to these destroyers? Because they do not make weapons at home. Yes, they will make some bombs, but who sells the weapons, who is responsible? I would at least ask that those who sell the weapons have the sincerity to say: we sell weapons. They don’t say it. It’s ugly.
Women… women are braver than men. But even today women are humiliated. Let’s go to the extreme: one of you showed me the list of prices for women. [Ed. prepared by ISIS for selling Christian and Yazidi women.] I couldn’t believe it: if the woman is like this, she costs this much… to sell her… Women are sold, women are enslaved. Even in the center of Rome, the work against trafficking is an everyday job.
During the Jubilee, I went to visit one of the many houses of the Opera Don Benzi: Ransomed girls, one with her ear cut off because she had not brought the right money that day, and the other brought from Bratislava in the trunk of a car, a slave, kidnapped. This happens among us, the educated. Human trafficking. In these countries, some, especially in parts of Africa, there is mutilation as a ritual that must be done. Women are still slaves, and we have to fight, struggle, for the dignity of women. They are the ones who carry history forward. This is not an exaggeration: Women carry history forward and it’s not a compliment because today is Women’s Day. Even slavery is like this, the rejection of women… Just think, there are places where there is the debate regarding whether repudiation of a wife should be given in writing or only orally. Not even the right to have the act of repudiation! This is happening today, but to keep us from straying, think of what happens in the center of Rome, of the girls who are kidnapped and are exploited. I think I have said everything about this. I wish you a good end to your trip and I ask you to pray for me, I need it. Thank you.
[…]
Over at Fr. Hunwicke’s blog there is a discussion about the specific problem of “infantalization” sometimes resulting from priestly incardination.
My sense is that infantalization also operates with respect to the distorted “hyper-papalism” that has emerged in the 20th and 21st centuries.
This distortion of the papacy enables tyrannical conceit, not sober stewardship and shepherding. It engenders blind trust in clericalist authority, instead of authentic trust that comes from recognizing the voice of the Good Shepherd. It worships power and disdains service. It changes the flock into a herd, displaces the shepherd for a rustler, and changes the laity from sheep into cattle.
This is what results when a Church turns its back on faith and reason, having lost its memory and identity 50 years after turning its back on tradition, which preserves faith and reason.
“the Francis era, Douthat suggests, ‘has made conservative overconfidence of the John Paul II era look foolish in hindsight,” even if “it hasn’t made liberal confidence look justified, or at least not yet.'”
This quote is so true. I recall all the confident bloggers tut-tutting the Episcopal Church as it embraced gay unions, remarking that ‘we have the Magisterium!’ like that guaranteed immunity from modern liquidity. Now we have Jim Martin all but explicitly endorsing the same thing and being promoted by the Vatican. Strange times.
I disagree. There was no conservative overconfidence or idolotry of the Pope during the JP II era or the Benedict era. Contrary to what liberals claim, there never was any conservative who claimed that JP II was always right, no matter what he said, simply because he was Pope. Instead, they claimed that he was right because what he said was thoroughly orthodox. Same for Benedict. They were right not because they were Pope, but because what they said was always orthodox.
“Contrary to what liberals claim, there never was any conservative who claimed that JP II was always right, no matter what he said, simply because he was Pope.”
There were times when certain of what I might call “First Things conservatives” – with George Weigel at the head of the list – seemed to come perilously close to that. (I might not call WITNESS TO HOPE a hagiography, but it flirts with it at times.) And if there was “overconfidence,” it wasn’t that all was right once again in the Church, but that the long arc of history had bent decisively in the direction of their narrative, even if the destination had not arrived just yet.
That narrative increasingly comes in for some reexamination.
“But he also notes another irony: conservative Catholics with concerns and criticisms of Francis who “backed the strongest possible understanding of papal authority” now faced with constantly being told to obey “the Pope, this Pope, this present Pope…””
I see no irony here. Perhaps I understand the Papacy differently from the way some others do. This article speaks of a “centralization of the Papacy and its magnification” as a recent development that “sits uneasily with the bulk of Church history and tradition.” It seems to me that Peter was pretty central and magnified – and rightly so. Yet he was at many times a very weak and wrong man, who was sometimes roughly rebuked by Jesus and by other apostles. So it has gone with Peter’s successors, more or less, depending upon their individual qualities.
This taunt to so-called ‘conservative Catholics,’ that their love for and rejoicing in the pontificates of JPII and Benedict XVI somehow divest them of standing to condemn error in all subsequent pontificates is pretty lame. It makes about as much sense as a kid telling his parents he no longer has to mow the lawn, because just this morning they told him they loved him and he was a great kid.
yes John from MN, the article in general has this fallacy running through it… a most blessed and fruitful day of Lent, Holy Week, Easter and Divine Mercy to all….
I agree. No supporter of JP II or Benedict backed “the strongest possible interpretation of papal authority” It just did not happen. There was no pushing of the notion of papal authority during their pontificates. There was merely the affirming of what they said as RIGHT, because it was orthodox. Liberals don’t get the whole idea of orthodoxy.
“This article speaks of a “centralization of the Papacy and its magnification” as a recent development that “sits uneasily with the bulk of Church history and tradition.””
It’s a development chiefly of the last 150 years or so.
Papal primacy has been there from the beginning. But there *has* been a major centralization of law, administration, appointments and messaging – centered around the person of the Pope – that simply was not there before the mid-late 19th century.
I’ll take a stab at answering the “why”, because too many bishops and cardinals have been (and are) administrators and/or too attached to the culture/”elite” thinking that surrounds them rather than courageous disciples of Christ. Hence, the clergy scandals and cover ups, bad seminaries, and “innovations”, not to mention a failure to inspire their diocesan flocks to be the courageous disciples this world desperately needs.
Lament doesn’t suffice. Ross Douthat analyzes correctly “That Francis acted with intentionality”. Intention indicates what is not definitively stated. We have an Apostasy moving in the opposite direction of Apostolic Tradition suggested in Amoris and the letters inserted in Acta Apostolicae Sedis declared official Magisterial doctrine by the Pontiff’s Mini-Me Vat Secy of State Cardinal Parolin none of which are definitive binding doctrine but rather further suggestions of intent. The imbroglio over Benedict XVI’s refusal to endorse Pope Francis’ theology involving burlesque revelation of contents charges countercharges dismissal reinstatement indicates both desire for endorsement and implacable “intention” to win the day. The New Paradigm narrative like Lieut Gen von Manstein’s Panzers bursting thru the seemingly ‘impregnable’ Ardennes surprising and routing the Allies has knocked solid Catholic thinkers off their pinions. Douthat knows many have Papolatry Disease and wringing our hands won’t do. We have clear definitive Apostolic Tradition. The Battle Lines have been drawn. We are called to the Front.
Reading this review, I better get Michael Sean Winter’s nasty reaction over at NCR: “You cursed brat! Look what you’ve done!! I’m melting, melting. Ohhhhh, what a world, what a world. Who would have thought that a New York Times columnist could would be the one…”
One might want to bid Francis to remember Formosus
Nice reference!Though I suspect since Formosus was restored to his proper grave that the warning about the end of Stephen VII, the corpse synod pope, who was later more lastingly dishonored, might be more apt.
There’s not much new here in this review (or apparently in the book if this review is accurate). I was hoping to hear about Douthat’s “third story”:the uneasy truce between conservative and progressive and the way to surmount both to bring about orthodoxy. Hopefully, Douthat offers some analysis and prescriptions in his book.
At bottom, its all about Truth – – not conservative truth or liberal truth but The TRUTH.
As to the why? Conduct a thought experiment: What would the devil do to harm the Church and the faithful? Do you see any similarities from your list and recent activity? We are under attack and have been for some time.
Pray!
Mike, you are bang on here!!!We must get back to the basics and stop naval gazing. This is a battle of principalities that was foretold us in Sacred Scripture. Christ, we must remember has not simply died and risen. The final stage will be his returning as Christ the King. The state of souls in the world, and apostasy must come first before His return and boy do we have apostates! We have a crisis of an impure priesthood and an atheistic society that must be made clean. Christ, who has Dominion over all creation, will come, in His time to make all things new. How many souls will be lost on His return, is partly up to us. Our role is to remain in God’s grace and pray for all those who are far from Him. He will apply those prayers to assist souls who are tumbling around in the darkness. Only the Truth will set each soul free. Watering down truth and creating god in one’s own image and likeness to enable one to live under a false putrid ideology founded by satan will not go well when He returns in all His Magnificence. Those found tearing at the Mystical Body of Christ, His Holy Church will tremble in His sight.
The consequences of ignoring the counsel of Father Kolvenbach in 1991 regarding one Jorge Bergoglio have resulted in the chaos, apostasy and de facto schism we are witnessing firsthand. How ironic that the Peter Principle has manifest itself with the latest successor to Saint Peter.
The resulting mess that will have to be cleaned up once the current Pontificate ends will rival that of the worst natural disaster ever known to man.
Francis knew, or must have known, the problems he would cause? No. I think he is not an intellectual himself, and he underestimated the number of intellectuals in the Church who would vigorously oppose his attempts at change. He is a typical liberal who hangs out with liberals and doesn’t realize how many of us have no interest in becoming liberals because we can see how destructive and how anti-God the progressive world view is. Francis’s minions in Rome are not smart men, and they don’t understand smart men. They are unable to change the truth with their ideas, so they act like clowns trying to force their liberalization of the Church. There is damage being caused, because we are sheep without a shepherd (very much so in the Catholic Church in the U.S., not just in Rome in general), and that’s a sad position to be in. But we are not letting the Church be taken without a fight, and it’s a fight we’ll eventually win. We have to, because as the article points out, if we lose, the Catholic Church will become as irrelevant as the Church of England, and the gates of hell will have prevailed. In the long run, that’s not going to happen.
Sharon:
Bergoglio’s Vatican gang are not clowns — they’re thugs. (Don’t forget, Bergoglio began his career as a nightclub bouncer, before he became a Jesuit).
The conduct of this Pontificate has been thuggish from the beginning (I won’t recount here all of the summary sackings and dirty tricks we all have witnessed). In fact, it was a gang of thugs that worked to get Benedict out and Bergoglio in — the St. Gallen Mafia and the Lavender Mafia.
Yes, indeed. Thugs, not men of holiness, having no sense of discipline.
The men surrounding the bishop of Rome I would not invite into my house.
Might one suggest that the current papacy is one that needs rescuing from itself? One word continues to plague this papacy—confusion. That is, the pope seems confused… about his role. Which, if I’m not mistaken, is to preserve undiminished the Catholic Faith, and to strengthen the brethren in this Faith. Pope Francis is our pope. He needs our prayers. He bears a heavy burden. For the sake of his soul and the billion+ souls under his care, he, like us all this Lent, would do well to ponder seriously the four last things.
This pontificate may not be a full step back (to 1970s goofiness) as much as it is a step sideways when the Church really needs at this time a pontiff who is willing to be absolutely clear about Christ’s teaching and who is willing to lead others forward in faithful witness to the Holy Gospel. Catholics need to say ‘no’ to permissiveness dressed up in slippery pseudo-doctrine. In other words, Catholics must say no to clergy who have missed the lesson taught by the trajectory set forth by Liberal Protestantism, a trajectory that reduces Christianity to a disposable ideal. Ironically, protestants and their liberal Catholic counterparts have forgotten that God makes available His grace to all those who call upon Him to help them grow in holiness. God does not abandon us to, nor does He tolerate, man’s sophistry. Liberal catholicism, like liberal protestantism, is a grace-less religion.
“If the conservatism of John Paul and Benedict led only to Francis, perhaps it didn’t conserve enough; if those popes’ attempted synthesis was so easily challenged and unraveled, perhaps it wasn’t a successful synthesis at all; if their project of restoration still left fertile soil for a new revolution, perhaps the entire project needed to be reassessed” (Ross Douthat To Change the Church). Maike Hickson 1Peter5 makes a powerful argument in respect to actual continuity between Pope Francis and Benedict XVI [inclusive of John Paul II] noted by Douthat that adds an entirely new dimension to the Letter imbroglio and the issue of continuity or discontinuity. And to my own previously held convictions[though many have asserted this on Catholic websites]. There is far more contained in Douthat’s book than thought after reading Rusello’s article. Mrs Hickson quotes Benedict questioning himself whether he contributed to a hegenomic Modernism. She also quotes credentialed theologian Msgr Antonio Livi to support this view. Whatever the motives of the players involved in the letter scandal this news seemingly more real than fake indicates political maneuvering of baiting Benedict to suit their narrative of continuity in change. Lament or no Douthat expresses hope in younger conservative priests restoring faith and doctrine. Needless to say that is impossible without conviction of permanent truth. The Apostolic Tradition unmitigated sans Modernism.
Thanks, Father Morello.
The Hickson piece in 1P5 raises a very disturbing question that many of us have been struggling with (though not publicizing) over the last 5 years. Was,in effect, Ratzinger a kind of Wizard of Oz? Did he, with the best of intentions, execute a virtuoso performance informing the pontificate of JP2, then advancing in his own pontificate, a “continuity” that is chimerical. Make no mistake: I love Ratzinger, advocate for him and read everything I can get my hands on that he writes.
Under Bergoglio the question seems to have become: Continuity, yes, but continuity with what?
Remember, that site is essentially a conspiracy site. They believe that there is a conspiracy about the third secret of Fatima, that Pope Benedict did not respond to their false allegations, and that secret forces control him now. The rather ridiculous claims they make in todays article about how Benedict was responsible for all the ills of the church just reinforces the idea they are a conspiracy web site.
I think it’s a stretch to read the Hickson article as saying Benedict “is responsible for all of the ills of the Church”.
She seems to me to be saying that in their pains to discern “continuity” between the pre- and post-Conciliar Church, JP2 and B16 may have evaded an inevitable “reckoning”. In my opinion, B16 executed an heroic, virtuoso performance trying to hold the Church (including the traditionalists) together. I love Benedict: with him, I venerate Pius XII, Pastor Angelicus, Pope of our youth; and to me, Benedict is Pastor Angelicus, Pope of my old age.
As for conspiracy theories, I hold no brief for 1P5, but…
Why has it been such a long and tortuous process to release the full Third Secret of Fatima?
As for “secret forces” now allegedly controlling Benedict, why not go there? The thuggish modus operandi of the current pontificate positively invites it. Benedict is the prisoner of the Vatican, and Ganswein arguably is his double-agent jail guard.
Robert you raise the question many suffer. The best indication of Benedict XVI’s mind is in his Last Testament interview by Peter Seewald. Benedict in response to decentralization, “We need the Petrine Ministry and the service of unity, and we need the responsibility of local churches”; Seewald: So you do not see any kind of break with your pontificate? Benedict: “No. I mean, one can of course misinterpret in places, with the intention of saying that everything has been turned on its head now. There may be a different emphasis, of course, but no opposition”. The remainder of the interview has Benedict praising Francis nonetheless if Benedict didn’t believe the Church isn’t “turned on its head” he would not have said it. Perhaps it’s Freudian. Benedict was strained and labored responding to Seewald. My conviction remains on what Benedict has written prior to has abdication particularly Jesus of Nazareth his last major opus in which he is implacable in refuting attempts to revise Gospel account of the Messianic revelation.
Thank you again, Father Morello.
Ratzinger is a man who early in his life learned how to speak truth in a totalitarian regime. It requires pregnant nuance (not lies). Now, in his old age, he finds himself prisoner of what amounts to a totalitarian ecclesiastical regime. There is much he could say, but he is acutely aware of the Petrine vocation of preserving unity, which still binds him.
The answer to Douthat’s musing is something which should have been apparent all along: That the project of a conservative (call it “Communio” if you like) reception of the Council of JPI and BXVI never penetrated very far into the Church, which has effectively been taken over by a thoroughly liberal clerisy by the late 60’s. They may have inspired a modest surge of vocations, but the episcopates were, with very rare exceptions, never on the same page as these popes. They would give lip service as necessary, but go on as they were. The papal power of appointment failed to alter this situation much, because a) both popes feared that a vigorous use of it to remake episcopates would trigger a major schism, b) there were in many places very little of a pool of like-minded clergy to appoint, and c) both men were, fundamentally, consensus-minded and gentlemanly in their administrative style. The Catholic Church of 1978-2013 was a fundamentally liberal ecclesiastical ice cream sundae with a conservative cherry on top (and a few nuts scattered within).
One could make an even more fundamental critique of both pontificates, as (say) traditionalists typically do – this would get to Douthat’s point about an impossible synthesis. Of course, a traditionalist pope elected in the past two decades who insisted on ruling as a traditionalist *would* have provoked an open schism. The question then becomes whether that’s actually preferable to the unofficial schism which seems to have been in place now in the Church since the 1960’s.
Richard regarding the Council there are two distinct takes the best analysis given by a youngish increasingly noted theologian Thomas White OP titled READING THE COUNCIL WITH NEWMAN, NOT NIETZSCHE. An excerpt: Fifty years after the opening of the Second Vatican Council, two schools of thought dominate the interpretation of that event. One derives from the theology surrounding the post-conciliar journal Concilium, founded by theologians like Hans Küng and Edward Schillebeeckx. It advances a progressivist reading of the Council: Vatican II stands for engagement with modernity, liberation of women, dialogue with world religions, liberalization of sexual mores, laicization of the mission of the Church, and liberal political advocacy. The other school stems from the thinkers who founded the journal Communio: Hans Urs von Balthasar and Joseph Ratzinger. It reads the Council as a bold new vision of a distinctively Catholic way of being in the midst of modernity. The agenda is inevitably countercultural: the Church as a sign and instrument of salvation in Christ, nuptial theology that stresses the importance of gender complementarity, Eucharistic communion and sacramental marriage as the core of a healthy society, teaching and evangelization as the heart of the Christian mission in the modern world. That Council teaches us confidence. For in modernity the Church surely does travel through a dark night of faith, but she also bears within herself the hidden and radiant presence of the inextinguishable light of Christ.
Hello Fr. Morello,
Yes, that has been the debate – two major receptions of the Council, Concilium vs Communio. Simplistic, but a lot of truth to it.
And the truth in turn is that Concilium pretty well won the day at every level below the Papacy pre-2013. We can guess at numbers, but it’s easily most of the bishops and clergy, nearly all of the credentialed theologians and academics, nearly all of religious order leaders, nearly all leaders and staff of Church institutions, of the past 53 years. Two Communio pontificates kept this mass from coloring *too* much farther outside the lines; these popes helped inspire some modest bumps in (more conservative) vocations and a few key appointments here and there created a slight gravitational pull in the other direction. But in the main, the overwhelming reception of Vatican II has been a Concilium one, I’m afraid. The Western World underwent a full scale cultural revolution beginning in the 60’s, and the Church went along in its wake.
The debate over how to understand the Council, over five decades on, seems increasingly bootless. We can go on (as one pope did) about a “Council of the Media,” or the “hijacking of Council,” but at some point, if the overwhelming, sustained, multi-generational reception of an event is “X,” it becomes increasingly difficult to cut that “X” reception away from the event and texts of the thing.
I’ll be curious to see how Douthat treats this in detail, but he seems to be rightfully hinting at the prospect that both schools have increasing reason for re-examination. The Concilium approach seems to only produce death and decay, no matter how eagerly pursued. (52 years after the Dutch Catechism, what is even *left* of Dutch Catholicism?!?) But it’s less clear just how viable a synthesis a lot of the Communio project is, either.
P.S. By the way, I would like to make clear that my argument isn’t just an institutional one (though it is in part that). It is true that Communio lines of thought never penetrated very deeply into theological or ecclesiastical circles, and there are a number of reasons for that – not all of which Communio thought and thinkers can be held responsible for. It’s hard to beat back a revolution in its full tide, especially when it has tenure and ecclesiastical power to wield.
But even beyond that, it is worth asking just how much staying power a lot of Ressourcement school is really going to have. There was a time when the the thought was gathering steam in the 1990’s in these circles that Balthasar, De Lubac, Maritain (and, yes, Wojtyla and Ratzinger) could lead the Church out of the theological cul-de-sacs that both mature Thomism on the one hand and progressivist theology (Kung, Rahner, Schillebeeckx, Congar, etc.) on the other had seemingly run into. But I can already sense the Communio tide gradually receding. I don’t say there is nothing of lasting value in any of that, but we must now be open to the possibility that a lot of that optimism may have been unfounded.
An interesting well informed analysis Richard. As a philosopher I search causes and the movement as such Modernism is the catch all terminology. What underlies what’s occurring is the modern man who questions all and forms his conclusions reaching back at least to Rousseau and the Emile. Politico liberalism in France critical analysis in Germany had to affect theology. “Pius X said modernism embraces every heresy. M. Loisy [France circa 1893] makes practically the same statement when he writes that ‘in reality all Catholic theology, even in its fundamental principles the general philosophy of religion, Divine law, and the laws that govern our knowledge of God, come up for judgment before this new court of assize'” (New Advent). I rediscovered my faith when Vat II began and sensed much of what was traditionally held was previously scrutinized although in appearance the Church was staid and solid. It was not. Most know what came to the surface during the Council was long fomenting and the likelihood is the Council staved it. Rebellion and schism was quite real during Paul VI’s pontificate. Paul VI kept the Church intact by compromise. You’re probably right that if John Paul II and Benedict were more forceful that rebellion which tended toward overt distancing would have occurred. As it happened it turned inward within the Church, which causes me to wonder whether strong opposition by those two pontiffs may have been the better option. And is at least in part why I agree with Bishop Athanasius Schneider that pious silence is not an option.
It looks like the new church is coming to take the form of a high pressure boiler room marketing operation. Say whatever needs to be said to close the sale. Make the sale and charge the credit card. Transactional spirituality. I use the small c because the new church more and more has the appearance of an ecclesial community as opposed to a Church.
One of the comforts of knowing Church history, and especially the history of the popes, is how greatly (and with pain and suffering) the Church always recovers from very deep crises. The Mystical Body of Christ will live the life of Christ until the end of time. I have no doubt that the hand of God is in all the confusion and turmoil of this papacy, but it is not all bad, despite the casualities. People should know that many popes and bishopsin the past have imposed a great deal of suffering and misery on the sheep and they will pay the debts they incur, as we all will pay for our own sins. The remedy for the troubles of our time is simple: ignore all the confusion and noise at the top and become saints. Not easy, but it is possible. Stick to traditional Catholic spirituality and ignore all the advise. Buy a copy of Tanquerrey’s The Spiritual Life. It is the science of the saints and don’t ask someone about it, clergy or lay, who has never read it.
This is of course true. But for parents struggling to transmit the faith to their children, and seeing the Church herself undermining this transmission, the battle is personal and deeply wounding.
Paul VI was right. The smoke of satan did enter the Church. Now we have a pontiff who wants to fan the flames and increase the smoke.
As info has come forward piecemeal Sandro Magister pieced together an important analysis of Benedict’s letter to Msgr Dario Viganò that further clarifies Benedict’s “continuity” with Pope Francis. An excerpt: “What may be the most expansive and meditated text published so far by Benedict XVI after his resignation from the papacy, in a multi-author book on John Paul II published in 2014, the pope emeritus does not hesitate to identify precisely ‘Veritatis Splendor’ as the encyclical of that pontificate most crucial for the present time. ‘To study and assimilate this encyclical,’ he concludes, ‘remains a great and important duty.’ It is no coincidence that three of the five ‘dubia’ submitted to Francis by several cardinals in 2016 concern precisely the risk of abandoning the foundations of moral doctrine reiterated by ‘Veritatis Splendor.’ Nor is it a coincidence that Ratzinger recalled, in his letter to Viganò, none other than the opposition to the principles of ‘Veritatis Splendor’ on the part of the theologians of the ‘Cologne Declaration,’ who have now been brought resoundingly back into favor by Francis. A pope whose ‘continuity’ with his predecessor can truly be, at this point, entirely and solely ‘interior'” (Magister).
“What is it that drives them to seemingly overturn longstanding Church teachings when similar moves have decimated other Christian communities in the West?” The answer is obvious: They despise the truth, they have turned away from the light, they love the applause of the world, they embrace the sentimental and political causes of atheist governments. In short, they are neo-pagans.
I guess Jesus created confusion also when He said, “Take and eat, this is my body. Take and drink, this is my blood.” I guess He didn’t know this would cause many of his disciples to leave. I guess He didn’t know this would cause Christian factions who deny the Transubstantiation.
The Church has spoken on a lot of things. Too bad there are those who just refuse to listen to Her.
Pope Francis said he is a son of the Church. Don’t go looking to false theologians. Didn’t Christ Himself say to be wary of wolves in sheep’s clothing?
Ask yourself. Who is the sheep and who are the wolves?
St. Joseph, pray for us.
I look forward to reading this book, but I hope it doesn’t gloss over the most important thing to know about Francis’ form of narcissism: his de facto atheism. Francis is a process theologian, and process theologians are atheists. The theory was advanced in the early seventies by Kasper and Kung and others that God is incomplete and in process of learning how to be a good God. Francis, like Kasper, is so committed to this idea of God, they condemn anyone who fails to share this vision as being so wrong in their understanding of God as to effectively be atheists. They are Orwellien madmen. To believe in the inferiority of God is to have such a false understanding of God is to be in effect a real atheist. Only a de facto atheist would have such a hysterical hatred for immutable truth, which is accessible to everyone by God’s plan and not in need of super intellectuals to arrive at pivotal points in human history to instruct the rest of humanity. Great minds can inspire us and remind us, but only God is the source of all truth. Haters of immutable truth, like Francis, are the real Pharisees and Pelagians. They hold the amoral qualities that Francis hatefully projects onto others.
Just started reading it. A very good book by a very good writer.
I’m hoping Pope Francks’ Pontificate ends soon.
I think that papal authority has been overrated by many Catholics. There is much resistance to Vatican II’s teaching on personal conscience.
Saint Paul, in 2Corinthians 1:24 says: “Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand”; and 1Peter 5:3 says to the elders: “Neither as being lords over God’s heritage, but being ensamples to the flock”.
1Thessalonians 5:21 tells us to “Prove all things; hold fast that which is good”. Maybe we should have been doing this all along.
Pope Francis may be helping this along.