Aboard the papal plane, Mar 8, 2021 / 03:00 pm (CNA).- Please read below for CNA’s full transcript of Pope Francis’ in-flight press conference from Baghdad, Iraq, to Rome, Italy on March 8, 2021.
Pope Francis: First of all, thank you for your work, your company, your fatigue. Then, today is Women’s Day. Congratulations to the women. Women’s Day. But they were saying why is there no Men’s Day? Even when [I was] in the meeting with the wife of the president. I said it was because us men are always celebrated and we want to celebrate women. And the wife of the president spoke well about women, she told me lovely things today, about that strength that women have to carry forward life, history, the family, many things. Congratulations to everyone. And third, today is the birthday of the COPE journalist. Or the other day. Where are you?
Matteo Bruni, Holy See press office director: It was yesterday.
Pope Francis: Best wishes and we should celebrate it, right? We will see how we can [do it] here. Very well. Now, the word is yours.
Bruni: The first question comes from the Arabic world: Imad Atrach of Sky News Arabia.
Imad Abdul Karim Atrach (Sky News Arabia): Holiness, two years ago in Abu Dhabi there was the meeting with the Imam al-Tayyeb of al-Azhar and the signing of the document on human fraternity. Three days ago you met with al-Sistani. Are you thinking to something similar with the Shiite side of Islam? And then a second thing about Lebanon, which St. John Paul II said is more than a country, it is a message. This message, unfortunately, as a Lebanese, I tell you that this message is now disappearing. Can we think a future visit by you to Lebanon is imminent?
Pope Francis: The Abu Dhabi document of February 4 was prepared with the grand imam in secret during six months, praying, reflecting, correcting the text. It was, I will say, a little assuming but take it as a presumption, a first step of what you ask me about.
Let’s say that this [Ed. meeting with al-Sistani] would be the second [step] and there will be others. It is important, the journey of fraternity. Then, the two documents. The Abu Dhabi one created a concern for fraternity in me, Fratelli tutti came out, which has given a lot. We must… both documents must be studied because they go in the same direction, they are seeking fraternity.
Ayatollah al-Sistani has a phrase which I expect to remember well. Every man… men are either brothers for religion or equals for creation. And fraternity is equality, but beneath equality we cannot go. I believe it is also a cultural path.
We Christians think about the Thirty Years’ War. The night of St. Bartholomew [Ed. St. Bartholomew’s Day massacre], to give an example. Think about this. How the mentality has changed among us, because our faith makes us discover that this is it: the revelation of Jesus is love, charity, and it leads us to this. But how many centuries [will it take] to implement it? This is an important thing, human fraternity. That as men we are all brothers and we must move forward with other religions.
The [Second] Vatican Council took a big step forward in [interreligious dialogue], also the later constitution, the council for Christian unity, and the council for religious dialogue — Cardinal Ayuso accompanies us today — and you are human, you are a child of God and you are my brother, period. This would be the biggest indication. And many times you have to take risks to take this step. You know that there are some critics who [say] “the pope is not courageous, he is an idiot who is taking steps against Catholic doctrine, which is a heretical step.” There are risks. But these decisions are always made in prayer, in dialogue, asking for advice, in reflection. They are not a whim and they are also the line that the [Second Vatican] Council has taught us. This is his first question.
The second: Lebanon is a message. Lebanon is suffering. Lebanon is more than a balance. It has the weakness of the diversity which some are still not reconciled to, but it has the strength of the great people reconciled like the fortress of the cedars. Patriarch Rai asked me to please make a stop in Beirut on this trip, but it seemed somewhat too little to me: A crumb in front of a problem in a country that suffers like Lebanon. I wrote a letter and promised to make a trip to Lebanon. But Lebanon at the moment is in crisis, but in crisis — I do not want to offend — but in a crisis of life. Lebanon is so generous in welcoming refugees. This is a second trip.
Bruni: Thank you, Your Holiness. The second question comes from Johannes Neudecker of the German news agency Dpa.
Johannes Neudecker (Deutsche Presse-Agentur): Thank you, Holy Father. My question is also about the meeting with al-Sistani. In what measure was the meeting with al-Sistani also a message to the religious leaders of Iran?
Pope Francis: I believe it was a universal message. I felt the duty of this pilgrimage of faith and penance to go and find a great man, a wise man, a man of God. And just listening to him you perceived this. And speaking of messages, I will say: It is a message for everyone, it is a message for everyone. And he is a person who has that wisdom and also prudence… he told me that for 10 years, “I do not receive people who come to visit me with also other political or cultural aims, no… only for religious [purposes].” And he was very respectful, very respectful in the meeting. I felt very honored; he never gets up even to greet people. He got up to greet me twice. A humble and wise man. This meeting did my soul good. He is a light. These wisemen are everywhere because God’s wisdom has been spread all over the world.
It also happens the same with the saints, who are not only those who are on the altars, they are the everyday saints, the ones I call “next-door saints.” Men and women who live their faith, whatever it may be, with coherence. Who live human values with coherence, fraternity with coherence. I believe that we should discover these people, highlight them, because there are so many examples. When there are scandals in the Church, many, this does not help, but we show the people seeking the path of fraternity. The saints next door. And we will find the people of our family, for sure. For sure a few grandpas, a few grandmas.
Eva Fernandez (Radio COPE): Holy Father, it is great to resume the press conferences again. It is very good. My apologies, but my colleagues have asked me to ask this question in Spanish.
[In Spanish] During these days your trip to Iraq has had a great impact throughout the world. Do you think that this could be the trip of your pontificate? And also, it has been said that it was the most dangerous. Have you been afraid at some point during this trip? And soon we will return to travel and you, who are about to complete the eighth year of your pontificate, do you still think it will be a short [pontificate]? And the big question always for the Holy Father, will you ever return to Argentina? Will Spain still have hope that one day the pope will visit?
Pope Francis: Thank you, Eva, and I made you celebrate your birthday twice — once in advance and another belated.
I start with the last question, which is a question that I understand. It is because of that book by my friend, the journalist and doctor, Nelson Castro. He wrote a book on [the history of] presidents’ illnesses, and I once told him, already in Rome, “But you have to do one on the diseases of the popes because it will be interesting to know the health issues of the popes — at least of some who are more recent.”
He started [writing] again, and he interviewed me. The book came out. They tell me it is good, but I have not seen it. But he asked me a question: “If you resign” — well, if I will die or if I will resign — “If you resign, will you return to Argentina or will you stay here?”
I said: “I will not go back to Argentina.” This is what I have said, but I will stay here in my diocese. But in that case, this goes together with the question: When will I visit Argentina? And why have I not gone there? I always answer a little ironically: “I spent 76 years in Argentina, that’s enough, isn’t it?”
But there is one thing. I do not know why, but it has not been said. A trip to Argentina was planned for November 2017 and work began. It was Chile, Argentina, and Uruguay. This was at the end of November. But then at that time there was an election campaign happening in Chile because on that day in December the successor of Michelle Bachelet was elected. I had to go before the government changed, I could not go [further].
So let us do this: Go to Chile in January. And then in January it was not possible to go to Argentina and Uruguay because January is like our August here, it is July and August in both countries. Thinking about it, the suggestion was made: Why not include Peru, because Peru was bypassed during the trip to Ecuador, Bolivia, Paraguay, and remained apart. And from this was born the January trip between Chile and Peru.
But this is what I want to say so that you do not create fantasies of “patriaphobia.” When there are opportunities, it must be done, right? Because there is Argentina and Uruguay and the south of Brazil, which are a very great cultural composition.
About my travels: I make a decision about my trips by listening. The invitations are many. I listen to the advice of the counselors and also to the people. Sometimes someone comes and says: What do you think? Should I go or not? And it is good for me to listen. And this helps me to make the decision later.
I listen to the counselors and in the end I pray. I pray and I think a lot. I have reflected a lot about some trips, and then the decision comes from within. It is almost spontaneous, but like a ripe fruit. It is a long way, isn’t it? Some are more difficult, some are easier, and the decision about this trip comes early.
The first invitation of the ambassador, first, that pediatrician doctor who was the ambassador of Iraq, very good. She persisted. And then came the ambassador to Italy who is a woman of battle. Then the new ambassador to the Vatican came and fought. Soon the president came. All these things stayed with me.
But there is one thing behind my decision that I would like to mention. One of you gave me a Spanish edition [of the book] “The Last Girl.” I have read it in Italian, then I gave it to Elisabetta Piqué to read. Did you read it? More or less it is the story of the Yazidis. And Nadia Murad tells about terrifying things. I recommend that you read it. In some places it may seem heavy, but for me this was the trasfondo of God, the underlying reason for my decision. That book worked inside me. And also when I listened to Nadia who came to tell me terrible things. Then, with the book… All these things together made the decision; thinking about all the many issues. But finally the decision came and I took it.
And, about the eighth year of my pontificate. Should I do this? [He crosses his fingers.] I do not know if my travel will slow down or not. I only confess that on this trip I felt much more tired than on the others. The 84 [years] do not come alone, it is a consequence. But we will see.
Now I will have to go to Hungary for the final Mass of the Eucharistic Congress, not a visit to the country, but just for the Mass. But Budapest is a two-hour drive from Bratislava, why not make a visit to Slovakia? I do not know. That is how they are thinking. Excuse me. Thank you.
Bruni: Thank you, Eva. Now the next question is from Chico Harlan of the Washington Post.
Chico Harlan (Washington Post): Thank you, Holy Father. I will ask my question in English with the help of Matteo. [In English] This trip obviously had extraordinary meaning for the people who got to see you, but it did also lead to events that caused conditions conducive to spreading the virus. In particular, unvaccinated people packed together singing. So as you weigh the trip, the thought that went into it and what it will mean, do you worry that the people who came to see you could also get sick or even die. Can you explain that reflection and calculation. Thank you.
Pope Francis: As I said recently, the trips are cooked over time in my conscience. And this is one of the [thoughts] that came to me most, “maybe, maybe.” I thought a lot, I prayed a lot about this. And in the end I freely made the decision. But that came from within. I said: “The one who allows me to decide this way will look after the people.” And so I made the decision like this but after prayer and after awareness of the risks, after all.
Bruni: The next question comes from Philippine de Saint-Pierre of the French press.
Philippine de Saint-Pierre (KTO): Your Holiness, we have seen the courage and dynamism of Iraqi Christians. We have also seen the challenges they face: the threat of Islamist violence, the exodus of Christians, and the witnesss of the faith in their environment. These are the challenges facing Christians through the region. We spoke about Lebanon, but also Syria, the Holy Land, etc. The synod for the Middle East took place 10 years ago but its development was interrupted with the attack on the Baghdad cathedral. Are you thinking about organizing something for the entire Middle East, be it a regional synod or any other initiative?
Pope Francis: I’m not thinking about a synod. Initiatives, yes — I am open to many. But a synod never came to mind. You planted the first seed, let’s see what will happen. The life of Christians in Iraq is an afflicted life, but not only for Christians. I came to talk about Yazidis and other religions that did not submit to the power of Daesh. And this, I don’t know why, gave them a very great strength. But there is a problem, like you said, with emigration. Yesterday, as we drove from Qaraqosh to Erbil, there were lots of young people and the age level was low, low, low. Lots of young people. And the question someone asked me: But these young people, what is their future? Where will they go? Many will have to leave the country, many. Before leaving for the trip the other day, on Friday, 12 Iraqi refugees came to say goodbye to me. One had a prosthetic leg because he had escaped under a truck and had an accident… so many escaped. Migration is a double right. The right to not emigrate and the right to emigrate. But these people do not have either of the two. Because they cannot not emigrate, they do not know how to do it. And they cannot emigrate because the world squashes the consciousness that migration is a human right.
The other day — I’ll go back to the migration question — an Italian sociologist told me, speaking about the demographic winter in Italy: “But within 40 years we will have to import foreigners to work and pay pension taxes.” You French are smarter, you have advanced 10 years with the family support law and your level of growth is very large.
But immigration is experienced as an invasion. Because he asked, yesterday I wanted to receive Alan Kurdi’s father after Mass. This child is a symbol for them. Alan Kurdi is a symbol, for which I gave a sculpture to FAO [the Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations]. It is a symbol that goes beyond a child who died in migration. He is a symbol of dying civilizations, which cannot survive. A symbol of humanity. Urgent measures are needed so that people have work in their place and do not have to emigrate. And also measures to safeguard the right to emigrate. It is true that every country must study well the ability to receive [immigrants], because it is not only about receiving them and leaving them on the beach. Receive them, accompany them, help them progress, and integrate them. The integration of immigrants is key.
Two anecdotes: Zaventem, in Belgium: the terrorists were Belgians, born in Belgium, but from ghettoized, non-integrated Islamic immigrants. Another example: when I went to Sweden, during the farewell ceremony, there was the minister, of what I don’t know, [Ed. Alice Bah-Kuhnke, Swedish Minister of Culture and Democracy from 2014 to 2019], she was very young, and she had a distinctive appearance, not typical of Swedes. She was the daughter of a migrant and a Swede, and so well integrated that she became minister [of culture]. Looking at these two things, they make you think a lot, a lot, a lot.
I would like to thank the generous countries. The countries that receive migrants, Lebanon. Lebanon was generous with emigrants. There are two million Syrians there, I think. And Jordan — unfortunately, we will not pass over Jordan because the king is very nice, King Abdullah wanted to pay us a tribute with the planes in passage. I will thank him now — Jordan has been very generous [with] more than one and a half million migrants, also many other countries… to name just two. Thank you to these generous countries. Thank you very much.
Matteo Bruni: The next question is in Italian from the journalist Stefania Falasca.
Stefania Falasca (Avvenire): Good morning, Holy Father. Thank you. In three days in this country, which is a key country of the Middle East, you have done what the powerful of the earth have been discussing for 30 years. You have already explained what was the interesting genesis of your travels, how the choices for your travels originate, but now in this juncture, can you also consider a trip to Syria? What could be the objectives from now to a year from now of other places where your presence is required?
Pope Francis: Thank you. In the Middle East only the hypothesis, and also the promise is for Lebanon. I have not thought about a trip to Syria. I have not thought about it because the inspiration did not come to me. But I am so close to the tormented and beloved Syria, as I call it. I remember from the beginning of my pontificate that afternoon of prayer in St. Peter’s Square. There was the rosary, adoration of the Blessed Sacrament. And how many Muslims with carpets on the ground were praying with us for peace in Syria, to stop the bombing, at that moment when it was said that there would be a fierce bombing. I carry Syria in my heart, but thinking about a trip, it has not occurred to me at this moment. Thank you.
Matteo Bruni: Thank you. The next question comes from Sylwia Wysocka of the Polish press.
Sylwia Wysocka (Polish Press Agency): Holy Father, in these very difficult 12 months your activity has been very limited. Yesterday you had the first direct and very close contact with the people in Qaraqosh: What did you feel? And then, in your opinion, now, with the current health system, can the general audiences with people, with faithful, recommence as before?
Pope Francis: I feel different when I am away from the people in the audiences. I would like to restart the general audiences again as soon as possible. Hopefully the conditions will be right. I will follow the norms of the authorities in this. They are in charge and they have the grace of God to help us in this. They are responsible for setting the rules, whether we like them or not. They are responsible and they have to be so.
Now I have started again with the Angelus in the square, with the distances it can be done. There is the proposal of small general audiences, but I have not decided until the development of the situation becomes clear. After these months of imprisonment, I really felt a bit imprisoned, this is, for me, living again.
Living again because it is touching the Church, touching the holy people of God, touching all peoples. A priest becomes a priest to serve, to serve the people of God, not for careerism, right? Not for the money.
This morning in the Mass there was [the Scripture reading about] the healing of Naaman the Syrian and it said that Naaman wanted to give gifts after he had been healed. But he refused… but the prophet Elisha refused them. And the Bible continues: the prophet Elisha’s assistant, when they had left, settled the prophet well and running he followed Naaman and asked for gifts for him. And God said, “the leprosy that Naaman had will cling to you.” I am afraid that we, men and women of the Church, especially we priests, do not have this gratuitous closeness to the people of God which is what saves us.
And to be like Naaman’s servant, to help, but then going back [for the gifts.] I am afraid of that leprosy. And the only one who saves us from the leprosy of greed, of pride, is the holy people of God, like what God spoke about with David, “I have taken you out of the flock, do not forget the flock.” That of which Paul spoke to Timothy: “Remember your mother and grandmother who nursed you in the faith.” Do not lose your belonging to the people of God to become a privileged caste of consecrated, clerics, anything.
This is why contact with the people saves us, helps us. We give the Eucharist, preaching, our function to the people of God, but they give us belonging. Let us not forget this belonging to the people of God. Then begin again like this.
I met in Iraq, in Qaraqosh… I did not imagine the ruins of Mosul, I did not imagine. Really. Yes, I may have seen things, I may have read the book, but this touches, it is touching.
What touched me the most was the testimony of a mother in Qaraqosh. A priest who truly knows poverty, service, penance; and a woman who lost her son in the first bombings by ISIS gave her testimony. She said one word: forgiveness. I was moved. A mother who says: I forgive, I ask forgiveness for them.
I was reminded of my trip to Colombia, of that meeting in Villavicencio where so many people, women above all, mothers and brides, spoke about their experience of the murder of their children and husbands. They said, “I forgive, I forgive.” But this word we have lost. We know how to insult big time. We know how to condemn in a big way. Me first, we know it well. But to forgive, to forgive one’s enemies. This is the pure Gospel. This is what touched me the most in Qaraqosh.
Matteo Bruni: There are other questions if you want. Otherwise we can…
Pope Francis: How long has it been?
Bruni: Almost an hour.
Pope Francis: We have been talking for almost an hour. I don’t know, I would continue, [joking] but the car… [is waiting for me.] Let’s do, how do you say, the last one before celebrating the birthday.
Matteo Bruni: The last is by Catherine Marciano from the French press, from the Agence France-Presse.
Catherine Marciano (AFP): Your Holiness, I wanted to know what you felt in the helicopter seeing the destroyed city of Mosul and praying on the ruins of a church. Since it is Women’s Day, I would like to ask a little question about women… You have supported the women in Qaraqosh with very nice words, but what do you think about the fact that a Muslim woman in love cannot marry a Christian without being discarded by her family or even worse. But the first question was about Mosul. Thank you, Your Holiness.
Pope Francis: I said what I felt in Mosul a little bit en passant. When I stopped in front of the destroyed church, I had no words, I had no words… beyond belief, beyond belief. Not just the church, even the other destroyed churches. Even a destroyed mosque, you can see that [the perpetrators] did not agree with the people. Not to believe our human cruelty, no. At this moment I do not want to say the word, “it begins again,” but let’s look at Africa. With our experience of Mosul, and these people who destroy everything, enmity is created and the so-called Islamic State begins to act. This is a bad thing, very bad, and before moving on to the other question — A question that came to my mind in the church was this: “But who sells weapons to these destroyers? Because they do not make weapons at home. Yes, they will make some bombs, but who sells the weapons, who is responsible? I would at least ask that those who sell the weapons have the sincerity to say: we sell weapons. They don’t say it. It’s ugly.
Women… women are braver than men. But even today women are humiliated. Let’s go to the extreme: one of you showed me the list of prices for women. [Ed. prepared by ISIS for selling Christian and Yazidi women.] I couldn’t believe it: if the woman is like this, she costs this much… to sell her… Women are sold, women are enslaved. Even in the center of Rome, the work against trafficking is an everyday job.
During the Jubilee, I went to visit one of the many houses of the Opera Don Benzi: Ransomed girls, one with her ear cut off because she had not brought the right money that day, and the other brought from Bratislava in the trunk of a car, a slave, kidnapped. This happens among us, the educated. Human trafficking. In these countries, some, especially in parts of Africa, there is mutilation as a ritual that must be done. Women are still slaves, and we have to fight, struggle, for the dignity of women. They are the ones who carry history forward. This is not an exaggeration: Women carry history forward and it’s not a compliment because today is Women’s Day. Even slavery is like this, the rejection of women… Just think, there are places where there is the debate regarding whether repudiation of a wife should be given in writing or only orally. Not even the right to have the act of repudiation! This is happening today, but to keep us from straying, think of what happens in the center of Rome, of the girls who are kidnapped and are exploited. I think I have said everything about this. I wish you a good end to your trip and I ask you to pray for me, I need it. Thank you.
[…]
At first it seemed retaliation without just cause. However, the ‘specific’ charge of “denying the legitimacy of Pope Francis as the rightful pontiff” appears serious enough, although the wording “denying the legitimacy” could mean lots of things. For example, denying the validity of Francis’ election, or that Pope Francis is unfit for the position of supreme Pontiff. This latter can be construed as an opinion, which doesn’t rise to the canonical definition of schism. Fundamentally, schism is the repudiation of a binding Pontifical pronouncement. That I haven’t perceived in Archbishop Carlo Viganò. However he did appear to publicly repudiate Vat II in an essay, but then followed it with the explanation that he actually repudiated how Vat II was interpreted. If there’s more convincing evidence than that I haven’t seen it. Although perhaps there is more.
Needless to say, I hope this can be resolved. It seems he can choose his canon lawyer advocate to make his defense. I’m sorry for him and for the many of us who admired Viganò’s forthrightness while Apostolic nuncio. Cardinal Parolin admits to that.
Dear Fr Peter, thanks for this restrained & balanced comment.
Some would want to reflect on the political value PF hopes will flow from decapitating a senior & well-informed critic of his scandalously anti-Apostolic acts:
“This’ll shut-up any other cardinals who’d dare to think for themselves! After their long careers, they’ll be terrified of exclusion!”
I have seen PF totally destroy another Cardinal in good standing who mercifully pointed out doctrinal error. He was stripped of his office and not given another assingment. When he chose ro stay in Rome, he was stripped of his monetary stipend as well. It saddens me to see such retaliatory behavior by our Supreme Poniff. It also continues to sadden me to see sexual predators go unpunished. I am still in full communion with the Catholic Church, but find many recent censures quite dismaying. I simply peay for God’s continuing guidance for our Church and for Pope Francis. As a sidenote, I gave up my shoe-in career in any public school of my choice in my state to serve the Church by teaching in a Catholic School system and working for pennies on the dollar while my husband labored 12-14 hrs. a day 365 days a year as a bulk milk hauler with no foreseeable future. I am not patting mydelf on the back in ANY way…I simply made the choice because I BELIEVED it was the BEST way to raise our 2 daughters…
God bless you and your family Mrs Jill.
Yes, there’s that [intimidation] as a consideration. Although most important is the validity of the Archbishop’s contentions. He deserves great credit for the exposure of the McCarrick files and the pontiff’s non response. What followed, much of it detailed by Peter Beaulieu, is the larger contention most of us are aware of. That is, aside from the Covid pharmaceutical conspiracy and like presumed issues, that which directly impacts the direction of our Church. We can also place aside the manner in which these matters were presented.
Nonetheless he did address them according to his conscientious convictions. As you’re aware these apparent transgressions from perennial doctrine, although done informally, have endangered the salvation of a host of people. The duty of a bishop, who has the ordained office defender of the faith is to address these apparent transgressions. Others, notably Cardinal Burke have engaged the pontiff and paid a price. Carlo Viganò witnessed Christ as he saw fit in his particular circumstances. In the end Christ will be his judge at the final tribunal. However faulty his efforts may have been, we clerics must concede he faithfully performed his duty under extreme duress. Savonarola was burned at the stake. Our modern Savonarola may suffer excommunication. Justice however God wills will triumph.
It won’t shut up several faithful, older Cardinals such as Raymond Cardinal Burke to speak truth when necessary regarding the Catholic faith.
I wonder what a Canonist such as Edward Peters would have to say about these charges?
Does Fr Morello really need to remind us of his Ph.D. With every comment?
No Charles. But I worked so hard to get the damn thing that I want to show it off.
Hilarious reply Fr. M!
Perfect.
Father Morello it IS difficult to get a PhD, but I think that “Fr.” in front of your name is the best accomplishment. Having said that, I offer the following, not to pile on, but because I think this is one of the most entertaining videos ever posted. It is a parody inspired by former CA Senator Babs Boxer. Two minutes that will make everyone’s weekend. Enjoy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjayK62XBCE
Do you know how to change your username or image Charles? Perhaps Fr. Peter does but I don’t. If you do, please let me know so I can tweak mine & add a non-generic image . Thanks.
Charles, I secured a place for an M.A. but then couldn’t move past 1st base and right now I am exploring the ballpark mostly like in the bleachers. Hooray for Fr.’s Ph.D.!
The schism charge suggests to me they want to separate Vigano from whatever leadership he has over his “following” and through his service commitments.
I thought it stood for Possible herniated Disk(Disc?), and have been praying for his strength!
Thank you Father Peter, as your succinct letter better places charges in context. I suppose many Catholics then would be at risk for excommunication, as they disagree with how Pope Francis has approached controversial and sensitive topics, and perhaps more what he has seemingly failed to do, rather than explicit actions. Moreover, many Catholics have since read documents from Vatican II and drawn the same conclusion that the content was “interpreted”–or “misconstrued” to extend beyond and outside the parameter of the Council. However, who is listening, and where is tha synod focus?
I accept that Pope Francis was elevated by the Holy Spirit though who of us understands God’s Will–Divine Plan–in this? His papacy is legitimate, but what Pope has not been confronted by criticism in the performance of that position in some way by Bishops, fellow clergy, and the laity? If questioning and even raising serious and legitimate concerns are grounds for excommunication, I would imagine millions would be so disposed.
Amen, and again amen.
In the third century, Bishop Cyprian of Carthage controverted Pope Stephen’s views on baptism by heretics. Cyprian (whose opinion the Bishop of Rome denied) became a saint, and Pope Stephen also became a saint, both through martyrdom for the faith.
St. Peter’s comportment at St. Paul’s controverting his Judaizer sympathies, is described by Cyprian:
Peter, whom first the Lord chose, and upon whom He built His Church, when Paul disputed with him afterwards about circumcision, [did not] claim anything to himself insolently, nor arrogantly assume anything; so as to say that he held primacy [primates, seniority], and that he ought rather to be obeyed by novices and those lately come. — Epistle 71[70]:3
I hope that both Vigano and Francis begin to behave as saints should.
Spare us, O Lord, O spare us, thy people:
and let not thy wrath be upon us ever.
The haze is removed. Thank you meiron.
I believe Vigano should go and “do as they say but not do as they do”. He should use the opportunity to give voice to what is going unsaid pertinent to the occasion and appertinent (appurtenant) to the issues. And this would be charity in communion. I know it’s hard to do. One has to force one’s mind to settle and ask God to shed His light and bring out the matter.
By using the verb appertain I do not mean merely legal accompaniment. I mean an embrace of the whole scale of accompanying issues legal and other. Charging Vigano in isolation of the rest of it is harmful to all and to the Pope and NOT taken into consideration amounts to putting unwarranted, albeit opportunistic blocks to Vigano.
Thanks that is very helpful.
“Fundamentally, schism is the repudiation of a binding Pontifical pronouncement.”
Affirmation of the Sanctity of the marital act within The Sacrament Of Holy Matrimony, and the Sanctity of human life from the moment of conception, have always been “a binding Pontifical pronouncement “.
To follow a man who could not have been canonically elected to The Papacy, because as a cardinal he “repudiated a binding Pontifical pronouncement “, is to follow a schismatic into schism.
“Canon 188 §4 states that among the actions which automatically (ipso facto) cause any cleric to lose his office, even without any declaration on the part of a superior, is that of “defect[ing] publicly from the Catholic faith” (” A fide catholica publice defecerit“).“
It has always been about The Marriage In Heaven and on earth.
“Blessed are those who are Called to The Wedding Supper Of The Lamb.”
A few years back CWR generously carried articles–and enabled a long thread of comments from non-credential/non-clericalist readers–on how to regard the Second Vatican Council. Part of that dialogue (!) pointed to the difference between the “real” council and the “virtual” council fed to the media by Hans Kung et al (Benedict’s terms). Brief but strategic Teilhardian phrases edited into the Documents, here and there, are offset by other interventions…etc.
FOR EXAMPLE, these correctives: “The Christian dispensation, therefore, as the new and definitive [!] covenant, will never pass away, and we now await no further new public revelation [synodal Holy Spirit?] before the glorious manifestation of the Lord Jesus Christ (cf 1 Tim 6:14, Tit. 2:13)” (Dei Verbum, n.4). AND: “In the depths of his conscience, man detects a law he does not impose upon himself, but which holds him to obedience [….] the Council wishes to recall first of all the permanent binding force of universal natural law and its all-embracing principles” (Gaudium et spes, n. 16, 79). AND, “Christ the Lord…by the revelation of the mystery of the Father and His love, fully reveals man to himself [!] and makes his supreme calling clear” (Gaudium et Spes, n. 22).
QUESTION: Such wording, maybe only a pitchfork against the incoming tide. But without airbrushing the Council, itself, as the apostasy, one could still flag the abuses of sleeper-cell termites now said to be consuming the Barque of Peter. Vigano has “aggregated, compiled and synthesized” (the synodal jargon!) a litany charges…
Even if Cardinal Vigano’s points can be shown to be only half-truths or worse, why can’t they finally be received in a spirit of mutually respectful dialogue (!) also involving other half-truths or worse? Why aren’t the adults in the room?
Cardinal Vigano: ” […. Pope Francis] promotes uncontrolled immigration and calls for the integration of cultures and religions. Globalism supports LGBTQ+ ideology: [Pope Francis] authorizes the blessing of same-sex couples and imposes on the faithful the acceptance of homosexualism, while covering up the scandals of his protégés and promoting them to the highest positions of responsibility. Globalism imposes the green agenda: [Pope Francis] worships the idol of the Pachamama, writes delirious encyclicals about the environment, supports the Agenda 2030, and attacks those who question the theory of man-made global warming. He goes beyond his role in matters that strictly pertain to science, but always and only in one direction: a direction that is diametrically opposed to what the Church has always taught. He has mandated the use of experimental gene serums, which caused very serious damage, death and sterility, calling them ‘an act of love,’ in exchange for funding from pharmaceutical companies and philanthropic foundations. His total alignment with the Davos religion is scandalous. Wherever governments at the service of the World Economic Forum have introduced or extended abortion, promoted vice, legitimized homosexual unions or gender transition, encouraged euthanasia, and tolerated the persecution of Catholics, not a word has been spent in defense of the Faith or Morals that are threatened, or in support of the civil battles of so many Catholics who have been abandoned by the Vatican and the Bishops. Not a word for the persecuted Catholics in China, with the complicity of the Holy See, which considers Beijing’s billions more important than the lives and freedom of thousands of Chinese who are faithful to the Roman Church [….] (June 20, 2024).
SUMMARY: The historic challenge, threat, and opportunity picked up by the two Vatican Councils together, is how to fully engage the good elements of historical modernity while at the same time being fully faithful to the reality of the historical and singular Incarnation and Pentecost (aggiornamento and ressourcement)?
As always, and especially now, how to be in the world without being of the world?
Dear Peter D. Beaulieu: “how to be in the world without being of the world?”
As so very many well-informed, very loyal Catholics – like Archbishop Carlo Maria Viganò – have commented, along the lines:
“This cannot be achieved in the P. Francis way of striving to be the first Summum Pontifex Paganorum; truly a novelty in our venerable Catholic ecclesial history!”
In a culture of social-media obsession, NOVELTY makes the pope to be OF the world. He is intoxicated by a popularity that betrays our Master, Jesus Christ.
In some ways, Archbishop Carlo Maria Viganò represents all Catholics in courageously trying to face the PF faction with the plain truth. THAT is true loyalty.
Yet, like Pontius Pilot, they retort:
“Of what use is truth? Don’t you know we have the power to cut you off?”
How sad to see The Church becoming more & more like Russia, China, & North Korea, with honest freedom of expression forcefully suppressed.
Keep praying, everyone; King Jesus Christ is still on The Throne!
Looks like koochy-koo katholicism has gone on vacation for the summer? That is, until we have the termination of the Vetus Ordo in July. Would that the likes of James Martin SJ and others of a heterodox bent on a range of issues — moral, theological, liturgical — shoulder the same penalty. Then, perhaps, this affront to justice against Archbishop Viganò might have an iota of credence.
We Americans have a unique experience this season. Two tiers of justice boldly on display in both Church and society. Secular materialist globalism reigns high in both. As someone noticed at another Catholic website, Hans Kung, who denied the infallibility of the Pope, did not face this consequence.
Whatever could be going on?
There is something going on here that transcends the picture we have at the moment. Is there a method to Viganò’s madness?
I would not be surprised. May it be speculated that Archbishop Viganò’s most recent statements were a calculated move to bring his concerns to the canonical venue? After all, it has been 2827 days since Cardinals Brandmüller, Burke, Caffarra, and Meisner sent their dubia regarding Amoris Laetitia to the Holy See where it remains unanswered.
Archbishop Viganò will have his day in court. What will be brought to light at that time could be quite illuminating regarding far more than Archbishop Viganò. The man is not foreign by any means to the complexities of ecclesial existence in the corner office.
May God reward Archbishop Viganò for his willingness to put his head on the block in defense of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church — Christ’s One True Church.
It is not for nothing that most decent, American Catholics that I know lack faith in their political and Church leaders. Instead of looking to our leaders, though, we should look to ourselves:
Let’s teach the Faith to our children ourselves without waiting on “the Church” to do it for us. Let’s do what Jesus commanded us without waiting on “the Church” to do it (or tell US to do it).
I have been waiting decades for “the Church” to get it’s act together, and I doubt I will see any real change before I die. The good news is that you can be the person God wants you to be in spite of Church leaders. Sad that it’s like that, but such is life…
Very good advice in the current dysfunctional and chaotic situation in our Catholic Church!
Spot on. I taught high school religion for two years at the end of the seventies. You cannot imagine the resistance I received from the faculty for insisting that the students be responsible for the material conveyed in class. It was all academic — no banners and poster work.
The Church has been committing suicide since 1958.
Thank you for your faith. My journey from atheism to Catholicism occurred mostly during the seventies. My scientific work enabled me to eventually find the fingerprint of God, and a pro-life orientation made me curious about religion. But it took time before witnessing all the dissenting Catholics in the seventies prepared me, with grace, to figure out that human pride always rebels against deep truth. And along with meeting my late wife, meeting those other Catholics who held firm pulled me over the top in the long climb up the hill. I don’t know what my life would have been with a Francis as pope back then.
What is often forgotten or not known by those who find Archbishop Vigano a sort of hero in their anti-Pope Francis cause and sentiments is that Vigano became what he is now as a schismatic sedevacantist disgruntled bishop starting in 2016 only. As Nuncio to the U.S., he botched the 2015 Papal Visit to the U.S.. Because of this he was returned to headquarters and mothballed (given no official assignment) which effectively derailed his ambition for higher ecclesiastical office. (His successor Christophe Pierre was elevated a Cardinal.). His diatribes against Pope Francis and Vatican II are not based on principles or convictions, they are only his way of getting back at his boss who fired him.
Francis might find the same reaction to his persecution and attempt to silence those who criticize his leadership that we seem to be experiencing here in the USA with Deep State’s attempt to silence its political enemies.
The reaction is a backlash against autocratic, totalitarian rulers.
Let’s remember that freedom of thought/ freedom of speech is an inalienable right. It cannot be surrendered, forfeited or taken away by any entity as it is endowed by our Creator God.
Dear DD: if your emotional, popesplaining post were presented in a court of law it would be roundly excluded, for fervid partisan lack of balance and logic.
1. no one has an: “anti-Pope Francis cause & sentiment” – from the Dubia through all too many other critiques, it is the FACTS of PF’s serious errors (unlike any other pope of recent times) that causes good Catholics, worldwide to repeatedly make factual protests – again, unlike with any other pope in my memory.
2. Archbishop Vigano (like many others who are learned in Canon Law) has expressed concern with the validity of some of the ungodly mechinations uniquesly involved in the election of PF. History will no doubt illuminate what Rome is concealing.
3. On what sort of hearsay do you claim Archbishop Vigano has “botched” his duties?
4. Careful consideration by learned, committed Catholics of the many serious issues raised by AV (see for example Fr Peter Morello PhD and Peter D. Beaulieu; & there’re numerous others) makes nonsense of your claim that AV’s questionings of our current pope: “are not based on principles or convictions”.
Sadly, we’re now in an age of rampant, partisan disinformation. Is it not inadvisable for Catholic lay or clergy to fall over themselves into that rabbit hole?
Ever seeking to hear & lovingly follow King Jesus Christ; blessings from marty
Perhaps what you say is true as to his motive but as best that I can discern Vigrano has been truthful and has not engaged in false witness against Pope Francis whose yes does not necessarily mean yes, nor does his no, necessarily mean no to the rejection of clarity within his body of work.
Deacon Dom has given a pretty good example of an ‘ad hominem’ argument. I thought personal attacks were discouraged in these comments.
Hard to read motives, but at the same time there may be a bit of truth in what you say! 😏
True Catholics abjure “bits of truth”.
We have THE TRUTh.
DD errs in defending PF’s corruptions of truth, and malicious attacks against truth-speakers.
Why not? It’s a qualification he no doubt worked hard to earn, and which attests to a certain depth of knowledge.
Do you need to remind us you’re a deacon?
Deacon Dom: As a hopeless backwardist, need I remind you of the Ten Commandments. Number Eight involves not treating your presumptions of motivations as factual and then repeating them as factual in public.
I am willing to spend the entirety of my net worth saved for my retirement and remaining few years to finance his defense and/or a public demonstration in St. Peter’s Square in his defense. I do not have the means to organize such an effort, but if anyone can, I am willing to support it.
Can’t a young person be found who will claim to be a sexual abuse victim of Archbishop Vigano?
Then the truth-telling cleric would be home free as far as Bergoglio’s Dark Vatican goes.
…Á la Rupnik.
It seems the church would be better off if II had never happened?
We seem to be like a Protestant church with the Eucharist and accompanying rituals.
God Bless Abp Vigano.
In case the ‘world’ hasn’t noticed: evil never stops, not in our suffering country, not in our suffering Church. Let us remember Solzhenitsyn “Man has forgotten God”.
And let us heed Our Lady of Fatima “the errors of Russia will spread throughout the world.” Now compare the USA Today to Bolshevik Russia under Lenin and Stalin. Atheism and murder of innocent babies in the womb are only two of the awful markers; fake elections; fake trials, women forced to work, massive popular substance abuse, fake news agencies, government corruption and oppression, political prisoners, secret police, …..
Vigano has solid &valid accusations minus the validation of pope Francis . I do know that if I were to visit the Vatican anytime soon I would feel the need to shower following that visit. The filth this pope surrounds himself with right down to his choice of comedians. Need I say more !
Has the Vatican ever been a clean place to live?
Yes.
This pontificate comes down hard on those who defend traditional Catholicism or are perceived enemies of the Pope
There is no “doctrine of Vatican II” to be rejected. And regardless of whether he was validly elected or not, Pope Francis has delegitimized not only himself, but the papacy itself. Defenders of this scandalous pontificate of the real problem in the Church today, not outraged bishops prone to intemperate speech.
Deacon Dom, as usual your writings do nothing but protect a pope who has protected the likes of Ted McCarrick and Marco Rupnik who have done far worse things. Did Vigano cross the line, that is to be determined. But the outcome of this “trial” has already been decided much like Bishop Strickland. Francis has long protected those who have questionable morals and silenced those who uphold to the teachings of the faith. I am not, nor have ever been a member of any group outside of the Church. However, I thank God my faith formation was not by some of those in charge today in the Church. Also, show me where Vigano is a sedevacantist as by definition they believe the last valid Pope was Pius XII. Otherwise, you are making false claims.
Another act as the curtain slowly closes on “theater-of-Pontiff-Francis,” heralded by McCarrick as Pontiff Francis came on stage, attested for 10 years by the ensemble of sex abusers and coverup artists from central casting, now “augmented” by their successor in sycophancy the miraculous Rupnik.
Reject the rule of Christ: “admissable” in the theater of Pontiff Francis.
Reject the rule of Pontiff Francis and his cult: a criminal offense to their persons.
Archbishop Viganò you are in my prayers. Keep up the good work. I agree with you. Thank you.
Perolin and “posse”? He/they might as well that those who signed onto
the document calling [and backed by hard evidence ] for Pope Francis to resign because of heresy. Viganó and these learned signers are on the same track. Is the accumulating “pressure” from SUCH hard evidence leveraging Cardinal Perolin [. . or is it that TOTALLY ANTI-Apostolic Mass “back-room” Cardinal??] to father the Vatican’s own “legitimate” push-back?
Take Vigano down and the LEARNED signers of the recent Document calling
for Francis’ RESIGNATION because of well-corroborated instances of
heresy might as well ALSO be “swept under the rug”.
The evidence that Vigano covered for McCarrick and slandered the pope is quite overwhelming but it is obvious the agreed upon lie is to pretend that there is nothing to look at. Otherwise Vigano would be released to slither off to join his father below in whatever pit is handy. If anyone wants to take the trouble to examine the evidence, go to Reason and theology.com click on page 2 at the bottom to find the June 6 article entitled” Uncovering the real story:archbishop Vigano and cardinal McCarrick”
Dear JJR, even if that had some truth, it does nothing to erase the very pertinent criticisms made by AV against the PF clique. Very serious criticisms that are well canvassed in the above comments, if you’d take the time to read them.
Let us never blind ourselves to unpleasant truths; even if the messenger is imperfect.
The serious failures of PF are many (far, far greater than any other modern pope). Much of his teaching & actions can legitimately be described as: ‘anti-Apostolic’.
By giving Holy Communion to public advocates of infanticide, PF is the figurehead advocate for mortal sin and sacrilege. He is proclaiming: “I am right, God is wrong!” For those who believe Catholicism is totally Apostolic, PF is exposed as non-Catholic.
We must never move from the divine reality that: “The Truth will set you free!” To the extent that AV & other senior hierarchs are bravely willing to expose the heterodoxies of the PF faction, millions of ordinary Catholics rejoice that truth still stands.
How to cut the worldwide Gordonian knot that PF’s deceptions have woven?
Let our bishops & cardinals call for his resignation so they can elect a proper Pope.
Ever in the grace & mercy of King Jesus Christ; love & blessings from marty
Not to worry.
Don’t you know that Archbishop Vigano has infinite dignity? 😉
If our dear Abp. Vigano answers this imperious summons from the alleged High Priest of Christendom, he will not survive the journey. (cf. Acts 25:1-12)
Well,well,given the length of this comment section I would have expected Pope Francis to be called “Bergoglio” a couple of dozen times by now. Brineyman so far seems to be the only one who wants the “badge of bonor”. The others keep pussyfooting around the term while confirming their defacto schism and sedvacanism. I will give Vigano one thing, he has done his bit to fulfill the Fatima prophecy that if enough of us did not repent then the errors of Russia would spread all over the world. Vigano praises the new Red Czar’s crimes and endorses the Third Rome idealogy.
Dear ‘JJR’, we gather from your fact-free tirade, that you’re fond of PF but loathe AV, apparently in proud ignorance of what so many well-informed experts have commented.
GOD bless you, anyway!
George Bergoglio is the man’s name, from the vernacular, secular, and legal points of view. Pope Francis is a Church title. Do we address you as “Mister/Miss Layman,” by preferred pronoun, by job title or highest professional earned degree? No? The same applies to Bergoglio. If and when he becomes a saint or a god, even then are we not free to refer to him by the words and labels we choose? Do you not know the man to whom the name ‘Bergoglio’ refers? Has your ‘holy father’ concocted a new commandment against free speech? Do you or does your dad misunderstand the sin of blasphemy? Perhaps I may be accused of a lack of decorum, but that’s as far as I’m able to accuse myself in this milennial year 2024. And if we are in schism or sedevacantism, BY WHAT AUTHORITY DO YOU IMAGINE YOURSELF TO JUDGE US SO? My bishop would beg to differ with you, LOG BEAM.
I think Carlo María Vigano is one of the few authentic voices in the Catholic Church today. While the world is falling apart, who is preparing us to be true to Christ’s teachings. The majority of the Church is on a different agenda including Pope Francis. I dont hear about the true Presence of Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament, Confession, Chastity, or any virtue except love thy neighbor. Thank you.