The state of the traditional Latin Mass: An interview with Joseph Shaw
“The experience of our members is that hostility to the old Mass is found above all in the older generation age of bishops and senior clergy. Seminary rectors, shrine custodians, and bishops have become steadily more friendly as time has gone on…”
Tridentine Mass in Strasbourg Cathedral, France. / Christophe117 via Wikimedia (CC BY-SA 4.0).
The Foederatio Internationalis Una Voce (FIUV) and the UK based Latin Mass Society (LMS) are both presided over by British writer and philosopher Joseph Shaw. The Latin Mass Society is undoubtedly the foremost organisation involved with the Traditional Mass in England and Wales.
In this interview, he presents FIUV, a founding member of CISP (Coetus Internationalis Summorum Pontificum), the umbrella organisation responsible for the annual pilgrimage to Rome of the Summorum Pontificum faithful.
CWR: You were elected president of FIUV in October 2021; could you briefly present to us this international organization?
Joseph Shaw: FIUV was founded in 1965 by the six first national associations of lay Catholics who wished to preserve the ancient Roman Rite. It was established to represent the interests of our members to the Holy See. The FIUV now has around 40 members, from all over Europe and North America, and increasingly from South America, Asia, and Africa. The Federation holds meetings in Rome every two years.
We have been led by some very distinguished Presidents, notably our founding President, Eric de Saventhem, and his successor, the prolific writer Michael Davies. Besides Mr Davies, who died in 2004, three other FIUV Presidents have been LMS members: Leo Darroch, Jamie Bogle, and at the time of writing the LMS Chairman, myself, Joseph Shaw.
Our Council, which assists and advises the President and Officers, includes Catholics from all over the world, from the Far East to Mexico, and from Germany to South Africa.
CWR: And what is your relationship with Rome?
Joseph Shaw: We firmly believe in the importance of what happens in Rome: not only official acts of the Holy Father and the Curia, but the example of Rome. FIUV and CISP (Coetus Internationalis Summorum Pontificum) in conjunction with the LMS over the years widened the possibilities for the celebration of the Traditional Mass in St Peter’s, which at one time was impossible, and then possible only in one chapel in the crypt.
Thus, the CISP has been able to secure the use of the most prestigious chapel of the upper basilica: the Chapel of the Throne. This has tremendous and undeniable symbolic significance, indicating the legitimacy of this Mass and its practical toleration by Pope Francis, even after Traditionis custodes. The continuation of the work with and of the CISP is of the greatest importance, therefore, and we are pleased to unite our efforts with those of the Coetus for this end.
CWR: What are other FIUV’s main purposes and initiatives?
Joseph Shaw: FIUV has the immensely important role of interceding on behalf of Catholics ‘attached to the former liturgical traditions’ from all over the world. Our Officers regularly travel to Rome to meet officials of the Roman Curia, journalists, diplomats, and others, to seek to understand attitudes to the ancient Mass, to ensure our interlocutors—whether inclined to be friendly or hostile—are well informed about the movement, and to represent our members needs and concerns.
But whereas the LMS and other organisations can make their own representations to Vatican departments on matters pertaining to England and Wales, FIUV is able to present a global picture thanks to its international network of members.
A major project of the Federation in recent years have been the production of 33 short ‘Position Papers’ on different aspects of the Traditional Mass, now available as the book The Case for Liturgical Restoration (Angelico Press, 2019). The papers were produced in consultation with a team of experts from many different member associations.
Another project was the production of a report on the implementation of the Apostolic Letter Summorum Pontificum, which involved detailed information from our members and other local contacts. We were able to present to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith this report, with a summary and conclusions, which included details from more than 350 dioceses in 52 countries. This was delivered to coincide with information coming to the CDF from bishops around the world, on the same subject, in the summer of 2020.
Some of the work of the Federation involves meeting with senior clerics; other aspects of our work have involved historical scholarship and theological argumentation. But it is the experience of ordinary Catholics, the ‘simple faithful’, which motivates the Federation. The movement is alive today because the Mass itself has continued to inspire, to console, and to give strength to many thousands of people in every culture where the Latin Rite is to be found.
Each of us involved in the Federation is also involved in our local ‘Una Voce’ group or ‘Latin Mass Society’, and we can see, in others and in ourselves, the continuing relevance of this liturgy, which can reach such a wide range of people.
CWR: What is your view of the current situation of the Church regarding the traditional Mass?
Joseph Shaw: The situation of the ancient Mass following Traditionis custodes and subsequent documents is mixed around the world, but this must itself represent a grave disappointment for those who hoped that this Mass would be rapidly wiped out.
The experience of our members is that hostility to the old Mass is found above all in the older generation age of bishops and senior clergy. Seminary rectors, shrine custodians, and bishops have become steadily more friendly as time has gone on, and ongoing hostility is sometimes the result of pressure from the very oldest generation of priests. While there are exceptions to this principle, it is clear that in ten years’ time the typical bishop and senior cleric will be much more open-minded about the ancient Mass than he is today, just as he is today much more open-minded than his predecessors of ten years ago.
At the same time, younger clergy and young lay Catholics are often enthusiastic about the old Mass, and find it difficult to understand why it has been so neglected for the last fifty years. The longer-term, therefore, gives us grounds for hope.
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Maureen McKinley milks one of her family’s goats in their backyard with help from three of her children, Madeline (behind), Fiona and Augustine on Monday, Aug. 2, 2021. McKinley and her family own two goats, chickens, a rabbit, and a dog. / Jake Kelly
Denver Newsroom, Aug 10, 2021 / 16:32 pm (CNA).
With five children ages 10 and under to care for, and a pair of goats, a rabbit, chickens and a dog to tend to, Maureen and Matt McKinley rely on a structured routine to keep their busy lives on track.
Chores, nap times, scheduled story hours – they’re all important staples of their day. But the center of the McKinleys’ routine, what focuses their family life and strengthens their Catholic faith, they say, is the Traditional Latin Mass.
Its beauty, reverence, and timelessness connect them to a rich liturgical legacy that dates back centuries.
“This is the Mass that made so many saints throughout time,” observes Maureen, 36, a parishioner at Mater Misericordiæ Catholic Church in Phoenix.
“You know what Mass St. Alphonsus Ligouri, St. Therese, St. Teresa of Avila and St. Augustine were attending? The Traditional Latin Mass,” Maureen says.
“We could have a conversation about it, and we would have all experienced the exact same thing,” she says. “That’s exciting.”
Recent developments in the Catholic Church, however, have curbed some of that excitement. On July 16, Pope Francis released a motu proprio titled Traditiones custodis, or “Guardians of the Tradition”, that has cast doubt on the future of the Traditional Latin Mass (TLM) – and deeply upset and confused many of its devotees.
Pope Francis’ directive rescinds the freedom Pope Benedict XVI granted to priests 14 years ago to say Masses using the Roman Missal of 1962, the form of liturgy prior to Vatican II, without first seeking their bishop’s approval. Under the new rules, bishops now have the “exclusive competence” to decide where, when, and whether the TLM can be said in their dioceses.
In a letter accompanying the motu proprio, Pope Francis maintains that the faculties granted to priests by his predecessor have been “exploited to widen the gaps, reinforce the divergences, and encourage disagreements that injure the Church, block her path, and expose her to the peril of division.”
Using the word “unity” a total of 15 times in the accompanying letter, the pope suggests that attending the TLM is anything but unifying, going so far as to correlate a strong personal preference for such masses with a rejection of Vatican II.
Weeks later, many admirers of the “extraordinary” form of the Roman rite – the McKinleys among them – are still struggling to wrap their minds and hearts around the pope’s order, and the pointed tone he used to deliver it.
Maureen McKinley says she had never considered herself a “traditionalist Catholic” before. Instead, she says she and her husband have just “always moved toward the most reverent way to worship and the best way to teach our children.”
“It didn’t feel like I became a particular type of Catholic by going to Mater Misericordiæ. But since the motu proprio came out, I feel like I have been categorized, like I was something different, something other than the rest of the Church,” she says.
“It feels like our Holy Father doesn’t understand this whole group of people who love our Lord so much.”
McKinley isn’t alone in feeling this way. Sadness, anger, frustration, and disbelief are some common themes in conversations among those who regularly attend the TLM.
They want to understand and support the Holy Father, but they also see the restriction as unnecessary, especially when plenty of other more pressing issues in the Church abound.
Eric Matthews, another Mater Misericordiæ parishioner, views the new restrictions as an “attack on devout Catholic culture,” citing the beauty that exists across the rites recognized within the Church. There are seven rites recognized in the Catholic Church: Latin, Byzantine, Alexandrian or Coptic, Syriac, Armenian, Maronite, and Chaldean.
“It’s the same Mass,” says Matthews, 39, who first discovered the TLM about eight years ago. “It’s just different languages, different cultures, but the people that you have there are there for the right reasons.”
Eric and Geneva Matthews with their four children. / Narissa Lowicki
Different paths to the TLM
The pope’s motu proprio directly affects a tiny fraction of U.S. Catholics – perhaps as few as 150,000, or less than 1 percent of some 21 million regular Mass-goers, according to some estimates. According to one crowd-sourced database, only about 700 venues – compared to over 16,700 parishes nationwide – offer the TLM.
Also, since the motu proprio’s release July 16, only a handful of bishops have stopped the TLM in their dioceses. Of those bishops who have made public responses, most are allowing the Masses to continue as before – in some cases because they see no evidence of disunity, and in others because they need more time to study the issue.
But for those who feel drawn to the TLM – for differing reasons that have nothing to do with a rejection of Vatican II – it feels as if the ground has shifted under their feet.
Maureen McKinley wants her children to understand the importance of hard work, of which they have no shortage when it comes to their urban farm. After morning prayer, Maureen milks the family’s goats with the help of the children. Madeline (age 10) feeds the bunny; Augustine (7) exercises the dog; John (6) checks for eggs from the chickens; and Michael (4) helps anyone he chooses.
With a noisy clatter in the kitchen, the McKinleys eat breakfast, tidy up their rooms, and begin their daily activities. They break at 11 a.m. to head to daily Mass at Mater Misericordiæ, an apostolate of the Priestly Fraternity of Saint Peter (FSSP), where they first attended two years ago.
Matt, 34, wanted to know how the early Christians worshipped.
“The funny thing about converts is they’re always wanting more,” says Maureen, who was, at first, a little resistant to the idea of attending the TLM because she didn’t know Latin. “Worship was a big part of his conversion.”
Maureen agreed to follow her husband’s lead, and they continued to attend the TLM. What kept them coming back week after week was the reverence for the Eucharist.
“Matt had a really hard time watching so many people receive communion in the hand at the other parish,” says Maureen. “He says he didn’t want our kids to think that that was the standard. That’s the exception to the rule, not the rule.”
Reverence in worship also drew Elizabeth Sisk to the TLM. A 28-year-old post-anesthesia care unit nurse, she attends both the Novus Ordo, the Mass promulgated by St. Paul VI in 1969, and the extraordinary form in Raleigh, North Carolina, where her parish, the Holy Name of Jesus Cathedral, offers the TLM on the first Sunday of the month.
Sisk has noticed recently that more people in her area — especially young people who are converts to Catholicism — are attending both forms of the Mass. While the Novus Ordo is what brought many of them, herself included, to the faith, she feels that the extraordinary form invites them to go deeper.
“We want to do something radical with our lives,” Sisk says. “To be Catholic right now as a young person is a really radical decision. I think the people who choose to be Catholic right now, we’re all in. We don’t want ‘watered-down’ Catholicism.”
Elizabeth Sisk stands in front of Holy Name of Jesus Cathedral in Raleigh, North Carolina.
With the lack of Christian values in the world today, Sisk desires “something greater,” which she says she can tell is happening in the TLM.
Many TLM parishes saw an increase in attendance during the pandemic, as they were often the only churches open while many others shut their doors or held Masses outside. This struck some as controversial, if not disobedient to the local government. For others, it was a saving grace to have access to the sacraments.
The priests at Erin Hanson’s parish obtained permission from the local bishop to celebrate Mass all day, every day, with 10 parishioners at a time during the height of the COVID pandemic.
“We were being told by the world that church is not necessary,” says Hanson, a 39-year-old mother of three. “Our priest says, ‘No, that’s a lie. Our church is essential. Our salvation is essential. The sacraments are essential.’”
Andy Stevens, 52, came into the Church through the TLM, much to the surprise of his wife, Emma, who had been a practicing Catholic for many years. Andy was “very adamantly not going to become Catholic,” but was happy to help Emma with their children at Mass. It wasn’t until they attended a TLM that Andy began to think differently about the Church.
“He believed that you die and then there is nothing, and he never really spoke to me about becoming a Catholic,” says Emma, 48, who was pregnant with their seventh child at the time.
Andy noticed an intense focus among the worshippers, which he recognized as a “real presence of God” that he didn’t see anywhere else. After the birth of their 7th child, he joined the Church.
All 12 of the Stevens’ children prefer the TLM to the Novus Ordo.
Emma and Andy Stevens with their 12 children in Oxford, England.
“It’s a Mass of the ages,” says their eldest son, Ryan, 27. “I can feel the veil between heaven and earth palpably thinner.”
A native of Chicago, Adriel Gonzalez, 33, remembers attending the TLM as a child, which he did not particularly like. It was “very long, very boring,” and the people who went to the TLM were “very stiff and they could come off as judgmental” towards his family, he says.
Gonzalez, who also attended Mass in Spanish with his family, didn’t understand the differences among rites, since Chicago was a sort of “salad bowl, ethnically,” he says, and Mass was celebrated in many languages and forms.
He took a step back from faith for some time, he says, noting that he had a “respectability issue” with the Christianity he grew up with. He watched as some of his friends were either thoughtless in the way they practiced their faith, or were “on fire,” but lacked intentionality. When he did come back to the faith, it was through learning about the Church’s intellectual tradition.
He spent time in monasteries and Eastern Catholic parishes with the Divine Liturgy because there was “something so obviously ancient about it.” He decided to stay within the Roman rite with a preference for a reverent Novus Ordo.
When he moved to Ann Arbor, Michigan, Gonzalez committed to his neighborhood parish, which had a strong contingent of people who loved tradition in general. The parish instituted a TLM in the fall of 2020, when they started having Mass indoors again after the pandemic.
Hallie and Adriel Gonzalez.
“If I’m at a Latin Mass, I’m more likely to get a sense that this is a time-honored practice, something that has been honed over the millennia,” he says. “There is clearly a love affair going on here with the Lord that requires this much more elaborate song and dance.”
For Eric Matthews, the TLM feels a little like time travel.
“It could be medieval times, it could be the enlightenment period, it could be the early 1900s, and the experience is going to be so similar,” he says.
“I just feel like that’s that universal timeframe – not just the universal Church in 2021 – but the universal Church in almost any time period. We’re the only church that can claim that.”
What happens now?
The motu proprio caught Adriel Gonzalez’ attention. He sought clarity about whether his participation in the extraordinary form was, in fact, part of a divisive movement, or simply an expression of his faith.
If it was a movement, he wanted no part of it, he says.
“As far as I can tell, the Church considers the extraordinary form and the ordinary form equal and valid,” says Gonzalez. “Ideally, there should be no true difference between going to one or the other, outside of just preference. It shouldn’t constitute a completely different reality within Catholicism.”
With this understanding, Gonzalez says he resonated with some of the reasoning set forth in the motu proprio because it articulated that the celebration of the TLM was never intended to be a movement away from the Novus Ordo or Vatican II. Gonzalez also emphasized that the extraordinary form was never supposed to be a “superior” way of celebrating the Mass.
Gonzalez believes the Lord allowed the growth in the TLM “to help us to recover a love for liturgy, and to ask questions about what worship and liturgy looks like.” He would have preferred if what was good was kept and encouraged, and what was potentially dangerous “coaxed out and called out.”
Mater Misericordæ Catholic Church in Phoenix, Arizona. / Viet Truong
Erin Hanson, of Mater Misericordiæ, agrees.
“If [Pope Francis] does believe there is division between Novus Ordo and traditional Catholics, I don’t think he did anything to try to fix that division,” she says.
Hanson would like to know who the bishops are that Pope Francis consulted in making this decision, sharing that she doesn’t feel that there is any of the transparency needed for such a major document. If there are divisions, she says, she would like the opportunity to work on them in a different way.
“This isn’t going to be any less divisive if he causes a possible schism,” Hanson says.
According to the motu proprio and the accompanying letter, the TLM is not to be celebrated in diocesan churches or in new churches constructed for the purpose of the TLM, nor should new groups be established by the bishops. Left out of their parish churches, some are worried their only option to attend Mass will be in a recreation center or hotel ballroom.
Eric Matthews hopes that everyone is able to experience the extraordinary form at least once in their life so they can know that this is not about division.
“I can’t imagine someone going to the Latin Mass and saying, ‘This is creating disunity,’” he says. “There’s nothing to be afraid of with the Latin Mass. You’re just going to be surrounding yourself with people that really take it to heart.”
Maureen McKinley was home sick when her husband Matt found out about the motu proprio. He had taken the kids to a neighborhood park, where he ran into some friends who also attend Mater Misericordiæ. They asked if he had heard the news.
“I felt disgust at a document that pretends to say so much while actually saying so little and disregards the Church’s very long and rich tradition of careful legal documents,” Matt McKinley says.
Bishop Thomas Olmsted of Phoenix stated that the TLM may continue at Mater Misericordiæ, as well as in chapels, oratories, mission churches, non-parochial churches, and at seven other parishes in the diocese. Participation in the TLM and all of the activities of the parish are so important to the McKinleys that they are willing to move to another state or city should further restrictions be implemented.
For now, their family’s routine continues the same as before.
At the end of their day, the McKinleys pray a family rosary in front of their home altar, which has a Bible at the center, and an icon of Christ and a statue of the Virgin Mary. They eat dinner together, milk the goat again, and take care of their evening animal chores. After night prayer, the kids head off to bed, blessing themselves with holy water from the fonts mounted on the wall before they enter their bedroom.
“The life of the Church springs from this Mass,” Maureen says. “That’s why we’re here—not because the Latin Mass is archaic, but that it’s actually just so alive.”
The Vatican’s doctrinal congregation has asked the world’s bishops to report on how a landmark papal document acknowledging the right of all priests to say Mass using the Roman Missal of 1962 is being applied […]
17 Comments
Irony of ironies. I wouldn’t even be reading this or looking for the nearest Latin Mass if it hadn’t been for TC.
Since Traditionis Custodes, opponents of the Traditional Latin Mass have been repeating the statistic that “only” 2% (or 1%) of Catholics attend the TLM, and that therefore, there is no great desire for the Mass. The is the equivalent of noting that the number of Indians living on the Great Plains is down from the previous tens of millions to only 200,000 … so, therefore, Indians must not like living on the Great Plains anymore. Constant persecution, closing of Mass locations, elimination of entire traditionalist orders… that just might have something to do with the numbers.
I don’t know what the actual data is for the percentage of Catholics attending the TLM but I’d like to see someone research the fertility rates of Western TLM women vs those attending NO Masses. I attend both & I’ve observed quite a difference in family sizes even in our conservative diocese.
It may be a smaller number of TLM attendees today, but I would make a bet that they will become a much larger percentage of the population in a few generations. Demography is destiny.
In Wales, just a few hundred.. but a few hundred more under ordinariate. But the numbers attending holy mass here are only 3-4000 each week. So its 5-6% and its fair to say a few hundred sleeping catholics would come back to church if their was the ancient mass. A lot go across the bridge to bristol for SSPX since the suppression. Things are not in a good way here but its a lot healthier than the novus ordo where grey heads that have a bergoglioan understanding of “catholic” or no spiritual life at all really
A quick google search can give anyone this numbers – in round figures – of parishes that have the old mass worldwide and here in the U.S.. Worldwide, out of the total 225,000 parishes, only 1,700 have the old mass. In the U.S., the figure is that of the total 18,000 parishes, only 700 have the old mass. It must also be noted that in the majority of these parishes with the old mass, the new mass is also celebrated and is held as the main form. Expect to see a decrease of these number of parishes globally and nationally when TC is fully implemented. One only gets the impression the old mass and its adherents are growing in the social and mass media bubble of the old mass promoters, of which this interview article is a good example. The number of parishes where the old mass is celebrated is the best indicator of the true state of the old mass.
Again, I think demographics are more critical than the number of parishes. How many children are these families having? And how many will be retained in the Faith in the next generation?
you’re a bit muddled, what you incorrectly call the ‘old Mass’ is in fact the Mass of All Time or the Mass of the Ages. It is the old, current and future Mass. The protestant Vatican II liturgy which you call the ‘new Mass’ is the museum piece, assuming the museum is stuck in the 1970s like poor old Jorge.
“The number of parishes where the old mass is celebrated is the best indicator of the true state of the old mass.”
The above statement is incorrect.
It is not the number of parishes where the old Mass is offered that is the best indicator of the true state of the old Mass but, rather, the number of people – and I would add “young people” and young priests – who assist at, or offer, such Masses that is the true determinant of the state of the old Mass.
If there are 10 parishes in a city and only one of them has the old Mass, if 100 people attend each of the 9 parishes where there is no old Mass but 1000 people attend the parish where the old Mass is offered, the number of parishes is irrelevant.
The state of the old Mass, particularly in Europe, can be measured by the tenacity of its adherents despite rabid opposition from an aging hierarchy. The statistics are there for all to see in such places as Holland, where the Catholic Faith is on the brink of disappearing, but the old Mass remains.
In France, by mid century, the current trajectory is that the number of priests who offer the old Mass will equal the number offering the new, as diocesan vocations disappear from diocese to diocese. Nothing Pope Francis does will be able to stop that, and in the not too distant future he will not have any say in the matter. He turns 86 in December.
DJR: Your declaration is false and wishful fantasy. Your hypothetical figure of 1000 attending the old mass is not the norm. Again, as I said, a simple google search can give the numbers. The average number of attendees in a typical old mass is 200 not 1000.
It must also be pointed out and corrected that this connection made by most old mass adherents with the spiritual decline of Europe to the new mass is illogical and simply false. The two are in no way singularly connected. The spiritual decline in Europe which is also true in most of the West is the result of a complex of social, cultural, and other factors. It may even surprise those who only inhabit the media bubble of the old mass promoters and adherents to know that the new mass remains and is in fact growing in Europe even with spiritual decline among the Europeans. Immigrants and peoples from former European colonies; Filipinos, Nigerians, Congolese, etc., celebrate the new mass and in a way revive the faith of their former colonizers.
So then if the TLM really isn’t as big of a thing as we think, why not let God sort it out. I seem to remember in the Bible when the Jewish leaders were persecuting the Christians, one leader said something to the effect that if this wasn’t from God, then it will die out on its own. If it IS from God, how can man think he can oppose God and win?
I write again to give real world examples of the falsity of the statement that “the number of parishes where the old mass is celebrated is the best indicator of the true state of the old mass.”
The city where my son lives has two Catholic parishes. One of them exclusively offers the old Mass, and the other one exclusively offers the new Mass. Thus, the number of parishes that offer the old Mass is 50% in his town.
Using your statement, “the true state” of both Masses is equal because the number of parishes where each Mass is offered is equal: 1 and 1.
However, the number of people who attend the old Mass parish is similar to the figure you pointed out, perhaps 200-300. But the number of people who attend the new Mass parish is probably 10 times that number, as that parish is huge.
But using your statement, “the true state” of each is equal. Obviously, they’re not equal by way of number of people attending. It is the number in attendance, not the number of venues, that demonstrates “the true state” of things.
Similarly, Saint Mary’s, Kansas, is a sleepy little town with a small Catholic “new Mass parish” that gets several hundred people attending. Yet, the SSPX chapel in the same town has an attendance of 4000, dwarfing the “new Mass parish” by a factor many times over.
Yet, in your scenario, the two are equal because the number of venues is the same. Can you see how your statement is erroneous?
It is the number of people, not the number of places, that is the best indicator in determining “the true state” of things.
“Immigrants and peoples from former European colonies; Filipinos, Nigerians, Congolese, etc., celebrate the new mass and in a way revive the faith of their former colonizers.”
From La Croix, September 21, 2022: Belgian bishops devise liturgy to bless same-sex couples.
Frankfurt, Germany, Feb 4, 2022 / 11:57 am (CNA): “Participants in the German Catholic Church’s ‘Synodal Way’ voted on Friday in favor of a text calling for the ordination of women priests.”
Pope told Irish church is ‘on the edge of collapse’. The Irish Catholic Church is on the verge of national collapse, the Pope will be told in a confidential new church report. DARA KELLY @IrishCentral, Feb 15, 2011
Amsterdam diocese: 60% of churches need to close in five years. Almost 100 churches face imminent closure due to dwindling churchgoers, volunteers, and income. LUKE COPPEN, September 26, 2022. 8:11 AM
Wed Jul 10, 2013 – 12:54 am EDT. Italy’s Last Catholic Generation? Mass Attendance in “Collapse” among Under-30s, by LifeSiteNews.com. By Hilary White
Young Poles abandoning ‘frozen’ Catholic Church. Issued on: 26/08/2022 – 12:06
Modified: 26/08/2022 – 12:01Warsaw (AFP) – It is still one of Europe’s most Catholic countries but Poland is seeing a rapid secularisation — particularly among younger generations.
We obviously do not inhabit the same planet. If anyone lives in a “mass media bubble,” it is those who actually believe “that the new mass remains and is in fact growing in Europe even with spiritual decline among the Europeans.”
I lived in Europe for a time in my younger years, and I have family who live there. There is absolutely no truth to the above statement. If the number of people attending the new Mass were growing, there would not be dozens upon dozens of parish churches closing.
What is false is this statement: “The number of parishes where the old mass is celebrated is the best indicator of the true state of the old mass.”
That is not “the best indicator” of the true state of the old Mass, and I demonstrated the falsity of it by using arbitrary numbers. It is the number of people who attend the old Mass, not the number of venues, that is “the best indicator.”
“Immigrants and peoples from former European colonies; Filipinos, Nigerians, Congolese, etc., celebrate the new mass and in a way revive the faith of their former colonizers.”
“In a way”? What way do they do that? What planet do you live on?
Nothing could be further from the truth. The Catholic immigrants to Europe who bother going to church on Sundays have not “revived” the faith of their former colonizers in any manner whatsoever.
Where is the evidence for your statement?
Mass attendance in some European countries is in the single digits and, once the older generation is gone, will be almost negligible.
The Diocese of Haarlem-Amsterdam recently announced the closure of 60% of its parishes. When the older generation finally dies out completely, there will be even more losses.
By mid century, 50% of priests in France will offer the old Mass, as new vocations for the new Mass have withered and, in some places, disappeared completely. La Croix reported that, in 2020, 60% of French dioceses had zero, as in none, ordinations.
In the middle of the U.S., the Society of Saint Pius X is building a church which can seat 1500, and their seminary is full. The FSSP also has a vibrant seminary.
The traditional Mass movement has been growing since the close of the Second Vatican Council, and no one is going to be able to stop the trajectory, as it is obviously the will of God.
Yes, the faith is on the brink of collapse in Europe and not just in Holland. Fr. Z. calls it the approaching sinkhole. The grayhairs are too busy managing decline to notice.
Irony of ironies. I wouldn’t even be reading this or looking for the nearest Latin Mass if it hadn’t been for TC.
Since Traditionis Custodes, opponents of the Traditional Latin Mass have been repeating the statistic that “only” 2% (or 1%) of Catholics attend the TLM, and that therefore, there is no great desire for the Mass. The is the equivalent of noting that the number of Indians living on the Great Plains is down from the previous tens of millions to only 200,000 … so, therefore, Indians must not like living on the Great Plains anymore. Constant persecution, closing of Mass locations, elimination of entire traditionalist orders… that just might have something to do with the numbers.
I don’t know what the actual data is for the percentage of Catholics attending the TLM but I’d like to see someone research the fertility rates of Western TLM women vs those attending NO Masses. I attend both & I’ve observed quite a difference in family sizes even in our conservative diocese.
It may be a smaller number of TLM attendees today, but I would make a bet that they will become a much larger percentage of the population in a few generations. Demography is destiny.
In Wales, just a few hundred.. but a few hundred more under ordinariate. But the numbers attending holy mass here are only 3-4000 each week. So its 5-6% and its fair to say a few hundred sleeping catholics would come back to church if their was the ancient mass. A lot go across the bridge to bristol for SSPX since the suppression. Things are not in a good way here but its a lot healthier than the novus ordo where grey heads that have a bergoglioan understanding of “catholic” or no spiritual life at all really
A quick google search can give anyone this numbers – in round figures – of parishes that have the old mass worldwide and here in the U.S.. Worldwide, out of the total 225,000 parishes, only 1,700 have the old mass. In the U.S., the figure is that of the total 18,000 parishes, only 700 have the old mass. It must also be noted that in the majority of these parishes with the old mass, the new mass is also celebrated and is held as the main form. Expect to see a decrease of these number of parishes globally and nationally when TC is fully implemented. One only gets the impression the old mass and its adherents are growing in the social and mass media bubble of the old mass promoters, of which this interview article is a good example. The number of parishes where the old mass is celebrated is the best indicator of the true state of the old mass.
Again, I think demographics are more critical than the number of parishes. How many children are these families having? And how many will be retained in the Faith in the next generation?
you’re a bit muddled, what you incorrectly call the ‘old Mass’ is in fact the Mass of All Time or the Mass of the Ages. It is the old, current and future Mass. The protestant Vatican II liturgy which you call the ‘new Mass’ is the museum piece, assuming the museum is stuck in the 1970s like poor old Jorge.
M. Philip above – So what? Numbers aren’t everything, unless you’re counting the number of children, maybe.
“The number of parishes where the old mass is celebrated is the best indicator of the true state of the old mass.”
The above statement is incorrect.
It is not the number of parishes where the old Mass is offered that is the best indicator of the true state of the old Mass but, rather, the number of people – and I would add “young people” and young priests – who assist at, or offer, such Masses that is the true determinant of the state of the old Mass.
If there are 10 parishes in a city and only one of them has the old Mass, if 100 people attend each of the 9 parishes where there is no old Mass but 1000 people attend the parish where the old Mass is offered, the number of parishes is irrelevant.
The state of the old Mass, particularly in Europe, can be measured by the tenacity of its adherents despite rabid opposition from an aging hierarchy. The statistics are there for all to see in such places as Holland, where the Catholic Faith is on the brink of disappearing, but the old Mass remains.
In France, by mid century, the current trajectory is that the number of priests who offer the old Mass will equal the number offering the new, as diocesan vocations disappear from diocese to diocese. Nothing Pope Francis does will be able to stop that, and in the not too distant future he will not have any say in the matter. He turns 86 in December.
DJR: Your declaration is false and wishful fantasy. Your hypothetical figure of 1000 attending the old mass is not the norm. Again, as I said, a simple google search can give the numbers. The average number of attendees in a typical old mass is 200 not 1000.
It must also be pointed out and corrected that this connection made by most old mass adherents with the spiritual decline of Europe to the new mass is illogical and simply false. The two are in no way singularly connected. The spiritual decline in Europe which is also true in most of the West is the result of a complex of social, cultural, and other factors. It may even surprise those who only inhabit the media bubble of the old mass promoters and adherents to know that the new mass remains and is in fact growing in Europe even with spiritual decline among the Europeans. Immigrants and peoples from former European colonies; Filipinos, Nigerians, Congolese, etc., celebrate the new mass and in a way revive the faith of their former colonizers.
So then if the TLM really isn’t as big of a thing as we think, why not let God sort it out. I seem to remember in the Bible when the Jewish leaders were persecuting the Christians, one leader said something to the effect that if this wasn’t from God, then it will die out on its own. If it IS from God, how can man think he can oppose God and win?
I write again to give real world examples of the falsity of the statement that “the number of parishes where the old mass is celebrated is the best indicator of the true state of the old mass.”
The city where my son lives has two Catholic parishes. One of them exclusively offers the old Mass, and the other one exclusively offers the new Mass. Thus, the number of parishes that offer the old Mass is 50% in his town.
Using your statement, “the true state” of both Masses is equal because the number of parishes where each Mass is offered is equal: 1 and 1.
However, the number of people who attend the old Mass parish is similar to the figure you pointed out, perhaps 200-300. But the number of people who attend the new Mass parish is probably 10 times that number, as that parish is huge.
But using your statement, “the true state” of each is equal. Obviously, they’re not equal by way of number of people attending. It is the number in attendance, not the number of venues, that demonstrates “the true state” of things.
Similarly, Saint Mary’s, Kansas, is a sleepy little town with a small Catholic “new Mass parish” that gets several hundred people attending. Yet, the SSPX chapel in the same town has an attendance of 4000, dwarfing the “new Mass parish” by a factor many times over.
Yet, in your scenario, the two are equal because the number of venues is the same. Can you see how your statement is erroneous?
It is the number of people, not the number of places, that is the best indicator in determining “the true state” of things.
“Immigrants and peoples from former European colonies; Filipinos, Nigerians, Congolese, etc., celebrate the new mass and in a way revive the faith of their former colonizers.”
From La Croix, September 21, 2022: Belgian bishops devise liturgy to bless same-sex couples.
Frankfurt, Germany, Feb 4, 2022 / 11:57 am (CNA): “Participants in the German Catholic Church’s ‘Synodal Way’ voted on Friday in favor of a text calling for the ordination of women priests.”
Pope told Irish church is ‘on the edge of collapse’. The Irish Catholic Church is on the verge of national collapse, the Pope will be told in a confidential new church report. DARA KELLY @IrishCentral, Feb 15, 2011
Amsterdam diocese: 60% of churches need to close in five years. Almost 100 churches face imminent closure due to dwindling churchgoers, volunteers, and income. LUKE COPPEN, September 26, 2022. 8:11 AM
Wed Jul 10, 2013 – 12:54 am EDT. Italy’s Last Catholic Generation? Mass Attendance in “Collapse” among Under-30s, by LifeSiteNews.com. By Hilary White
Young Poles abandoning ‘frozen’ Catholic Church. Issued on: 26/08/2022 – 12:06
Modified: 26/08/2022 – 12:01Warsaw (AFP) – It is still one of Europe’s most Catholic countries but Poland is seeing a rapid secularisation — particularly among younger generations.
We obviously do not inhabit the same planet. If anyone lives in a “mass media bubble,” it is those who actually believe “that the new mass remains and is in fact growing in Europe even with spiritual decline among the Europeans.”
I lived in Europe for a time in my younger years, and I have family who live there. There is absolutely no truth to the above statement. If the number of people attending the new Mass were growing, there would not be dozens upon dozens of parish churches closing.
But they are.
What is false is this statement: “The number of parishes where the old mass is celebrated is the best indicator of the true state of the old mass.”
That is not “the best indicator” of the true state of the old Mass, and I demonstrated the falsity of it by using arbitrary numbers. It is the number of people who attend the old Mass, not the number of venues, that is “the best indicator.”
“Immigrants and peoples from former European colonies; Filipinos, Nigerians, Congolese, etc., celebrate the new mass and in a way revive the faith of their former colonizers.”
“In a way”? What way do they do that? What planet do you live on?
Nothing could be further from the truth. The Catholic immigrants to Europe who bother going to church on Sundays have not “revived” the faith of their former colonizers in any manner whatsoever.
Where is the evidence for your statement?
Mass attendance in some European countries is in the single digits and, once the older generation is gone, will be almost negligible.
The Diocese of Haarlem-Amsterdam recently announced the closure of 60% of its parishes. When the older generation finally dies out completely, there will be even more losses.
By mid century, 50% of priests in France will offer the old Mass, as new vocations for the new Mass have withered and, in some places, disappeared completely. La Croix reported that, in 2020, 60% of French dioceses had zero, as in none, ordinations.
In the middle of the U.S., the Society of Saint Pius X is building a church which can seat 1500, and their seminary is full. The FSSP also has a vibrant seminary.
The traditional Mass movement has been growing since the close of the Second Vatican Council, and no one is going to be able to stop the trajectory, as it is obviously the will of God.
Yes, the faith is on the brink of collapse in Europe and not just in Holland. Fr. Z. calls it the approaching sinkhole. The grayhairs are too busy managing decline to notice.
And interestingly, it is the older generations who insist on these banal, stupid hymns….