Aboard the papal plane, Mar 8, 2021 / 03:00 pm (CNA).- Please read below for CNA’s full transcript of Pope Francis’ in-flight press conference from Baghdad, Iraq, to Rome, Italy on March 8, 2021.
Pope Francis: First of all, thank you for your work, your company, your fatigue. Then, today is Women’s Day. Congratulations to the women. Women’s Day. But they were saying why is there no Men’s Day? Even when [I was] in the meeting with the wife of the president. I said it was because us men are always celebrated and we want to celebrate women. And the wife of the president spoke well about women, she told me lovely things today, about that strength that women have to carry forward life, history, the family, many things. Congratulations to everyone. And third, today is the birthday of the COPE journalist. Or the other day. Where are you?
Matteo Bruni, Holy See press office director: It was yesterday.
Pope Francis: Best wishes and we should celebrate it, right? We will see how we can [do it] here. Very well. Now, the word is yours.
Bruni: The first question comes from the Arabic world: Imad Atrach of Sky News Arabia.
Imad Abdul Karim Atrach (Sky News Arabia): Holiness, two years ago in Abu Dhabi there was the meeting with the Imam al-Tayyeb of al-Azhar and the signing of the document on human fraternity. Three days ago you met with al-Sistani. Are you thinking to something similar with the Shiite side of Islam? And then a second thing about Lebanon, which St. John Paul II said is more than a country, it is a message. This message, unfortunately, as a Lebanese, I tell you that this message is now disappearing. Can we think a future visit by you to Lebanon is imminent?
Pope Francis: The Abu Dhabi document of February 4 was prepared with the grand imam in secret during six months, praying, reflecting, correcting the text. It was, I will say, a little assuming but take it as a presumption, a first step of what you ask me about.
Let’s say that this [Ed. meeting with al-Sistani] would be the second [step] and there will be others. It is important, the journey of fraternity. Then, the two documents. The Abu Dhabi one created a concern for fraternity in me, Fratelli tutti came out, which has given a lot. We must… both documents must be studied because they go in the same direction, they are seeking fraternity.
Ayatollah al-Sistani has a phrase which I expect to remember well. Every man… men are either brothers for religion or equals for creation. And fraternity is equality, but beneath equality we cannot go. I believe it is also a cultural path.
We Christians think about the Thirty Years’ War. The night of St. Bartholomew [Ed. St. Bartholomew’s Day massacre], to give an example. Think about this. How the mentality has changed among us, because our faith makes us discover that this is it: the revelation of Jesus is love, charity, and it leads us to this. But how many centuries [will it take] to implement it? This is an important thing, human fraternity. That as men we are all brothers and we must move forward with other religions.
The [Second] Vatican Council took a big step forward in [interreligious dialogue], also the later constitution, the council for Christian unity, and the council for religious dialogue — Cardinal Ayuso accompanies us today — and you are human, you are a child of God and you are my brother, period. This would be the biggest indication. And many times you have to take risks to take this step. You know that there are some critics who [say] “the pope is not courageous, he is an idiot who is taking steps against Catholic doctrine, which is a heretical step.” There are risks. But these decisions are always made in prayer, in dialogue, asking for advice, in reflection. They are not a whim and they are also the line that the [Second Vatican] Council has taught us. This is his first question.
The second: Lebanon is a message. Lebanon is suffering. Lebanon is more than a balance. It has the weakness of the diversity which some are still not reconciled to, but it has the strength of the great people reconciled like the fortress of the cedars. Patriarch Rai asked me to please make a stop in Beirut on this trip, but it seemed somewhat too little to me: A crumb in front of a problem in a country that suffers like Lebanon. I wrote a letter and promised to make a trip to Lebanon. But Lebanon at the moment is in crisis, but in crisis — I do not want to offend — but in a crisis of life. Lebanon is so generous in welcoming refugees. This is a second trip.
Bruni: Thank you, Your Holiness. The second question comes from Johannes Neudecker of the German news agency Dpa.
Johannes Neudecker (Deutsche Presse-Agentur): Thank you, Holy Father. My question is also about the meeting with al-Sistani. In what measure was the meeting with al-Sistani also a message to the religious leaders of Iran?
Pope Francis: I believe it was a universal message. I felt the duty of this pilgrimage of faith and penance to go and find a great man, a wise man, a man of God. And just listening to him you perceived this. And speaking of messages, I will say: It is a message for everyone, it is a message for everyone. And he is a person who has that wisdom and also prudence… he told me that for 10 years, “I do not receive people who come to visit me with also other political or cultural aims, no… only for religious [purposes].” And he was very respectful, very respectful in the meeting. I felt very honored; he never gets up even to greet people. He got up to greet me twice. A humble and wise man. This meeting did my soul good. He is a light. These wisemen are everywhere because God’s wisdom has been spread all over the world.
It also happens the same with the saints, who are not only those who are on the altars, they are the everyday saints, the ones I call “next-door saints.” Men and women who live their faith, whatever it may be, with coherence. Who live human values with coherence, fraternity with coherence. I believe that we should discover these people, highlight them, because there are so many examples. When there are scandals in the Church, many, this does not help, but we show the people seeking the path of fraternity. The saints next door. And we will find the people of our family, for sure. For sure a few grandpas, a few grandmas.
Eva Fernandez (Radio COPE): Holy Father, it is great to resume the press conferences again. It is very good. My apologies, but my colleagues have asked me to ask this question in Spanish.
[In Spanish] During these days your trip to Iraq has had a great impact throughout the world. Do you think that this could be the trip of your pontificate? And also, it has been said that it was the most dangerous. Have you been afraid at some point during this trip? And soon we will return to travel and you, who are about to complete the eighth year of your pontificate, do you still think it will be a short [pontificate]? And the big question always for the Holy Father, will you ever return to Argentina? Will Spain still have hope that one day the pope will visit?
Pope Francis: Thank you, Eva, and I made you celebrate your birthday twice — once in advance and another belated.
I start with the last question, which is a question that I understand. It is because of that book by my friend, the journalist and doctor, Nelson Castro. He wrote a book on [the history of] presidents’ illnesses, and I once told him, already in Rome, “But you have to do one on the diseases of the popes because it will be interesting to know the health issues of the popes — at least of some who are more recent.”
He started [writing] again, and he interviewed me. The book came out. They tell me it is good, but I have not seen it. But he asked me a question: “If you resign” — well, if I will die or if I will resign — “If you resign, will you return to Argentina or will you stay here?”
I said: “I will not go back to Argentina.” This is what I have said, but I will stay here in my diocese. But in that case, this goes together with the question: When will I visit Argentina? And why have I not gone there? I always answer a little ironically: “I spent 76 years in Argentina, that’s enough, isn’t it?”
But there is one thing. I do not know why, but it has not been said. A trip to Argentina was planned for November 2017 and work began. It was Chile, Argentina, and Uruguay. This was at the end of November. But then at that time there was an election campaign happening in Chile because on that day in December the successor of Michelle Bachelet was elected. I had to go before the government changed, I could not go [further].
So let us do this: Go to Chile in January. And then in January it was not possible to go to Argentina and Uruguay because January is like our August here, it is July and August in both countries. Thinking about it, the suggestion was made: Why not include Peru, because Peru was bypassed during the trip to Ecuador, Bolivia, Paraguay, and remained apart. And from this was born the January trip between Chile and Peru.
But this is what I want to say so that you do not create fantasies of “patriaphobia.” When there are opportunities, it must be done, right? Because there is Argentina and Uruguay and the south of Brazil, which are a very great cultural composition.
About my travels: I make a decision about my trips by listening. The invitations are many. I listen to the advice of the counselors and also to the people. Sometimes someone comes and says: What do you think? Should I go or not? And it is good for me to listen. And this helps me to make the decision later.
I listen to the counselors and in the end I pray. I pray and I think a lot. I have reflected a lot about some trips, and then the decision comes from within. It is almost spontaneous, but like a ripe fruit. It is a long way, isn’t it? Some are more difficult, some are easier, and the decision about this trip comes early.
The first invitation of the ambassador, first, that pediatrician doctor who was the ambassador of Iraq, very good. She persisted. And then came the ambassador to Italy who is a woman of battle. Then the new ambassador to the Vatican came and fought. Soon the president came. All these things stayed with me.
But there is one thing behind my decision that I would like to mention. One of you gave me a Spanish edition [of the book] “The Last Girl.” I have read it in Italian, then I gave it to Elisabetta Piqué to read. Did you read it? More or less it is the story of the Yazidis. And Nadia Murad tells about terrifying things. I recommend that you read it. In some places it may seem heavy, but for me this was the trasfondo of God, the underlying reason for my decision. That book worked inside me. And also when I listened to Nadia who came to tell me terrible things. Then, with the book… All these things together made the decision; thinking about all the many issues. But finally the decision came and I took it.
And, about the eighth year of my pontificate. Should I do this? [He crosses his fingers.] I do not know if my travel will slow down or not. I only confess that on this trip I felt much more tired than on the others. The 84 [years] do not come alone, it is a consequence. But we will see.
Now I will have to go to Hungary for the final Mass of the Eucharistic Congress, not a visit to the country, but just for the Mass. But Budapest is a two-hour drive from Bratislava, why not make a visit to Slovakia? I do not know. That is how they are thinking. Excuse me. Thank you.
Bruni: Thank you, Eva. Now the next question is from Chico Harlan of the Washington Post.
Chico Harlan (Washington Post): Thank you, Holy Father. I will ask my question in English with the help of Matteo. [In English] This trip obviously had extraordinary meaning for the people who got to see you, but it did also lead to events that caused conditions conducive to spreading the virus. In particular, unvaccinated people packed together singing. So as you weigh the trip, the thought that went into it and what it will mean, do you worry that the people who came to see you could also get sick or even die. Can you explain that reflection and calculation. Thank you.
Pope Francis: As I said recently, the trips are cooked over time in my conscience. And this is one of the [thoughts] that came to me most, “maybe, maybe.” I thought a lot, I prayed a lot about this. And in the end I freely made the decision. But that came from within. I said: “The one who allows me to decide this way will look after the people.” And so I made the decision like this but after prayer and after awareness of the risks, after all.
Bruni: The next question comes from Philippine de Saint-Pierre of the French press.
Philippine de Saint-Pierre (KTO): Your Holiness, we have seen the courage and dynamism of Iraqi Christians. We have also seen the challenges they face: the threat of Islamist violence, the exodus of Christians, and the witnesss of the faith in their environment. These are the challenges facing Christians through the region. We spoke about Lebanon, but also Syria, the Holy Land, etc. The synod for the Middle East took place 10 years ago but its development was interrupted with the attack on the Baghdad cathedral. Are you thinking about organizing something for the entire Middle East, be it a regional synod or any other initiative?
Pope Francis: I’m not thinking about a synod. Initiatives, yes — I am open to many. But a synod never came to mind. You planted the first seed, let’s see what will happen. The life of Christians in Iraq is an afflicted life, but not only for Christians. I came to talk about Yazidis and other religions that did not submit to the power of Daesh. And this, I don’t know why, gave them a very great strength. But there is a problem, like you said, with emigration. Yesterday, as we drove from Qaraqosh to Erbil, there were lots of young people and the age level was low, low, low. Lots of young people. And the question someone asked me: But these young people, what is their future? Where will they go? Many will have to leave the country, many. Before leaving for the trip the other day, on Friday, 12 Iraqi refugees came to say goodbye to me. One had a prosthetic leg because he had escaped under a truck and had an accident… so many escaped. Migration is a double right. The right to not emigrate and the right to emigrate. But these people do not have either of the two. Because they cannot not emigrate, they do not know how to do it. And they cannot emigrate because the world squashes the consciousness that migration is a human right.
The other day — I’ll go back to the migration question — an Italian sociologist told me, speaking about the demographic winter in Italy: “But within 40 years we will have to import foreigners to work and pay pension taxes.” You French are smarter, you have advanced 10 years with the family support law and your level of growth is very large.
But immigration is experienced as an invasion. Because he asked, yesterday I wanted to receive Alan Kurdi’s father after Mass. This child is a symbol for them. Alan Kurdi is a symbol, for which I gave a sculpture to FAO [the Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations]. It is a symbol that goes beyond a child who died in migration. He is a symbol of dying civilizations, which cannot survive. A symbol of humanity. Urgent measures are needed so that people have work in their place and do not have to emigrate. And also measures to safeguard the right to emigrate. It is true that every country must study well the ability to receive [immigrants], because it is not only about receiving them and leaving them on the beach. Receive them, accompany them, help them progress, and integrate them. The integration of immigrants is key.
Two anecdotes: Zaventem, in Belgium: the terrorists were Belgians, born in Belgium, but from ghettoized, non-integrated Islamic immigrants. Another example: when I went to Sweden, during the farewell ceremony, there was the minister, of what I don’t know, [Ed. Alice Bah-Kuhnke, Swedish Minister of Culture and Democracy from 2014 to 2019], she was very young, and she had a distinctive appearance, not typical of Swedes. She was the daughter of a migrant and a Swede, and so well integrated that she became minister [of culture]. Looking at these two things, they make you think a lot, a lot, a lot.
I would like to thank the generous countries. The countries that receive migrants, Lebanon. Lebanon was generous with emigrants. There are two million Syrians there, I think. And Jordan — unfortunately, we will not pass over Jordan because the king is very nice, King Abdullah wanted to pay us a tribute with the planes in passage. I will thank him now — Jordan has been very generous [with] more than one and a half million migrants, also many other countries… to name just two. Thank you to these generous countries. Thank you very much.
Matteo Bruni: The next question is in Italian from the journalist Stefania Falasca.
Stefania Falasca (Avvenire): Good morning, Holy Father. Thank you. In three days in this country, which is a key country of the Middle East, you have done what the powerful of the earth have been discussing for 30 years. You have already explained what was the interesting genesis of your travels, how the choices for your travels originate, but now in this juncture, can you also consider a trip to Syria? What could be the objectives from now to a year from now of other places where your presence is required?
Pope Francis: Thank you. In the Middle East only the hypothesis, and also the promise is for Lebanon. I have not thought about a trip to Syria. I have not thought about it because the inspiration did not come to me. But I am so close to the tormented and beloved Syria, as I call it. I remember from the beginning of my pontificate that afternoon of prayer in St. Peter’s Square. There was the rosary, adoration of the Blessed Sacrament. And how many Muslims with carpets on the ground were praying with us for peace in Syria, to stop the bombing, at that moment when it was said that there would be a fierce bombing. I carry Syria in my heart, but thinking about a trip, it has not occurred to me at this moment. Thank you.
Matteo Bruni: Thank you. The next question comes from Sylwia Wysocka of the Polish press.
Sylwia Wysocka (Polish Press Agency): Holy Father, in these very difficult 12 months your activity has been very limited. Yesterday you had the first direct and very close contact with the people in Qaraqosh: What did you feel? And then, in your opinion, now, with the current health system, can the general audiences with people, with faithful, recommence as before?
Pope Francis: I feel different when I am away from the people in the audiences. I would like to restart the general audiences again as soon as possible. Hopefully the conditions will be right. I will follow the norms of the authorities in this. They are in charge and they have the grace of God to help us in this. They are responsible for setting the rules, whether we like them or not. They are responsible and they have to be so.
Now I have started again with the Angelus in the square, with the distances it can be done. There is the proposal of small general audiences, but I have not decided until the development of the situation becomes clear. After these months of imprisonment, I really felt a bit imprisoned, this is, for me, living again.
Living again because it is touching the Church, touching the holy people of God, touching all peoples. A priest becomes a priest to serve, to serve the people of God, not for careerism, right? Not for the money.
This morning in the Mass there was [the Scripture reading about] the healing of Naaman the Syrian and it said that Naaman wanted to give gifts after he had been healed. But he refused… but the prophet Elisha refused them. And the Bible continues: the prophet Elisha’s assistant, when they had left, settled the prophet well and running he followed Naaman and asked for gifts for him. And God said, “the leprosy that Naaman had will cling to you.” I am afraid that we, men and women of the Church, especially we priests, do not have this gratuitous closeness to the people of God which is what saves us.
And to be like Naaman’s servant, to help, but then going back [for the gifts.] I am afraid of that leprosy. And the only one who saves us from the leprosy of greed, of pride, is the holy people of God, like what God spoke about with David, “I have taken you out of the flock, do not forget the flock.” That of which Paul spoke to Timothy: “Remember your mother and grandmother who nursed you in the faith.” Do not lose your belonging to the people of God to become a privileged caste of consecrated, clerics, anything.
This is why contact with the people saves us, helps us. We give the Eucharist, preaching, our function to the people of God, but they give us belonging. Let us not forget this belonging to the people of God. Then begin again like this.
I met in Iraq, in Qaraqosh… I did not imagine the ruins of Mosul, I did not imagine. Really. Yes, I may have seen things, I may have read the book, but this touches, it is touching.
What touched me the most was the testimony of a mother in Qaraqosh. A priest who truly knows poverty, service, penance; and a woman who lost her son in the first bombings by ISIS gave her testimony. She said one word: forgiveness. I was moved. A mother who says: I forgive, I ask forgiveness for them.
I was reminded of my trip to Colombia, of that meeting in Villavicencio where so many people, women above all, mothers and brides, spoke about their experience of the murder of their children and husbands. They said, “I forgive, I forgive.” But this word we have lost. We know how to insult big time. We know how to condemn in a big way. Me first, we know it well. But to forgive, to forgive one’s enemies. This is the pure Gospel. This is what touched me the most in Qaraqosh.
Matteo Bruni: There are other questions if you want. Otherwise we can…
Pope Francis: How long has it been?
Bruni: Almost an hour.
Pope Francis: We have been talking for almost an hour. I don’t know, I would continue, [joking] but the car… [is waiting for me.] Let’s do, how do you say, the last one before celebrating the birthday.
Matteo Bruni: The last is by Catherine Marciano from the French press, from the Agence France-Presse.
Catherine Marciano (AFP): Your Holiness, I wanted to know what you felt in the helicopter seeing the destroyed city of Mosul and praying on the ruins of a church. Since it is Women’s Day, I would like to ask a little question about women… You have supported the women in Qaraqosh with very nice words, but what do you think about the fact that a Muslim woman in love cannot marry a Christian without being discarded by her family or even worse. But the first question was about Mosul. Thank you, Your Holiness.
Pope Francis: I said what I felt in Mosul a little bit en passant. When I stopped in front of the destroyed church, I had no words, I had no words… beyond belief, beyond belief. Not just the church, even the other destroyed churches. Even a destroyed mosque, you can see that [the perpetrators] did not agree with the people. Not to believe our human cruelty, no. At this moment I do not want to say the word, “it begins again,” but let’s look at Africa. With our experience of Mosul, and these people who destroy everything, enmity is created and the so-called Islamic State begins to act. This is a bad thing, very bad, and before moving on to the other question — A question that came to my mind in the church was this: “But who sells weapons to these destroyers? Because they do not make weapons at home. Yes, they will make some bombs, but who sells the weapons, who is responsible? I would at least ask that those who sell the weapons have the sincerity to say: we sell weapons. They don’t say it. It’s ugly.
Women… women are braver than men. But even today women are humiliated. Let’s go to the extreme: one of you showed me the list of prices for women. [Ed. prepared by ISIS for selling Christian and Yazidi women.] I couldn’t believe it: if the woman is like this, she costs this much… to sell her… Women are sold, women are enslaved. Even in the center of Rome, the work against trafficking is an everyday job.
During the Jubilee, I went to visit one of the many houses of the Opera Don Benzi: Ransomed girls, one with her ear cut off because she had not brought the right money that day, and the other brought from Bratislava in the trunk of a car, a slave, kidnapped. This happens among us, the educated. Human trafficking. In these countries, some, especially in parts of Africa, there is mutilation as a ritual that must be done. Women are still slaves, and we have to fight, struggle, for the dignity of women. They are the ones who carry history forward. This is not an exaggeration: Women carry history forward and it’s not a compliment because today is Women’s Day. Even slavery is like this, the rejection of women… Just think, there are places where there is the debate regarding whether repudiation of a wife should be given in writing or only orally. Not even the right to have the act of repudiation! This is happening today, but to keep us from straying, think of what happens in the center of Rome, of the girls who are kidnapped and are exploited. I think I have said everything about this. I wish you a good end to your trip and I ask you to pray for me, I need it. Thank you.
[…]
It reminds me a little of the media coverage of the “mass grave” suspected in a septic tank in Ireland.
Your comment about a septic tank is prescient. It seems that the “grave” sites correspond to an area of extensive septic field. The installation of the septic field was well documented for the time with drawings on record. Further confirmation is necessary but the most likely explanation at this is that this was a case of a very sloppy investigation.
Thank you for sharing that info. William. It’s the first I’ve heard about it.
It seems safe to say that the MSM have not been helpful on this topic.
I’m going to pull a St. Thomas—- I would like to see the bodies before I believe their are bodies of children in a mass grave. Just thought in this day and age when many want to accuse the Catholic’s of just about everything.I need proof,demand it!
I am wondering how ground penetrating radar, if it registers soil anomalies that could be mistaken for a burial, can distinguish the number of burials as well as the ages of those buried. That is especially the case if it is a mass grave. How can one even discern individuals?
At the time of Canada’s indigenous education program Canada was not a sovereign nation. Still the status of a British colony.
“The governorship [of Canada] was placed in the hands of Sir John Colborne. Durham [who Colborne replaced], on his departure, issued a very injudicious proclamation, which was virtually an attack upon the Government which had deserted him. Canadian Act of Reunion. A bill providing a new constitution for the colony was introduced and passed in 1840, and this Canadian Act of Reunion adopted his report almost in its entirety” (British Express).
From previous research the indigenous peoples ed program initiated by the Canadian parliament the only real prospect of maintaining such a system in far flung remote areas were the religious orders, Protestant missionaries. Catholic sisters responded to the appeal for personnel, were given assurance of sufficient financial support. In time with a Canadian colonial government with changing administrations from Britain that assistance waned. The sisters were left with a virtually impossible task to maintain a healthy environment in remote, extremely cold winter areas. Deaths due to pneumonia, Tb, lack of proper diet were the likely cause. Not as suggested as purposeful neglect by hateful media, prejudiced opinions.
Dear pastor and brother:
There are two sides to the story and you address some aspects which want attention.
To his credit, Papa did an admirable job of confessing and asking for forgiveness.
We seldom hear the success stories and commendation for priests and sisters who did their job with love and zeal.
It is odd that one aspect of residential schools is raised by the attendees. The system produced doctors, architects, accountants, lawyers, judges and high ranking businessmen. The work done inspired others to do worthwhile work in society. For educated people to go back to their hamlets might not be productive, so they integrated into society and made important contributions.
Where wrong doing took place, let us acknowledge it and move on. Where confession is offered, forgiveness (the Christian way) needs to be presented by the wronged party.
Romans 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
John 16:33 I have said these things to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world.”
John 14:27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give to you. Not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your hearts be troubled, neither let them be afraid.
God bless you,
Brian
Brian, you imply I’m not aware of abuse that may have occurred. In fact I acknowledge that in my comment. Reread it. It’s not necessary for you to preach to me.
Fr Peter, I did not “imply” that you were unaware of abuse. Indeed it is not necessary for me to preach to you, it is best that you preach to me.
The scripture included is for others to consider. You know these words and regardless of how often we read them, they are a blessing to our souls.
Your viewpoint enlightens and I enjoy your perspective. You lead and I hope you find encouragement in the fact that a layman endorses your service and strives to emulate excellence from wherever quarter it comes.
Blessings,
Brian
Thanks Brian. Then I must be misreading you. Forget my response to you on G Weigel article.
Methodist minister Egerton Ryerson, chief superintendent of education for Upper Canada 1844 initiated the residential school system backed by the Dept of Indian Affairs [Dr Farrow] when Canada was a British colony. Canada became the Dominion of Canada with its own parliament 1867, although it remained as such a dominion of Britain [the British parliament retained sovereignty over its dominions. Canada did not possess full legal autonomy until the Statute of Westminster was passed on December 11, 1931]. Canada attained complete sovereignty as a nation 1982. The point here is that the emergence from colony, to dominion, to legal autonomy, to eventual complete sovereignty leaves the issue of a consistent well supported indigenous residential education effort in question.
Father –
Thanks for the history lesson. My family has been living in Canada since the 1600’s. Respectfully, your theory that Indigenous suffering under the residential school system was the result of some sort of funding/oversight gap because of Canada’s historical relationship with the UK is mere conjecture (made up) and completely beside the point.
The actual point is the very real suffering Indigenous children suffered under unjust government policy facilitated by Catholic religious (and other churches). The fact remains that thousands of children were sexually/physically/emotionally abused at the hands of Catholic religious. Moreover, at least 3200 children died in these church run institutions.
Read the Truth and Reconciliation Commission’s report which was produced by the Canadian government. The section starting on page 135 should be of particular interest:
https://irsi.ubc.ca/sites/default/files/inline-files/Executive_Summary_English_Web.pdf
After McCarrick, Boston, Mt. Cashel and hundreds of other examples you would think we would now know that must be humble and listen to the stories of those who have suffered at the hands of clergy/religious and the hierarchy. Yet, when it comes to the suffering of Indigenous peoples (many of whom are fellow Catholics…not that it should matter) many Catholics want to dismiss their suffering with glib pseudo historical explanations and macabre contrarianism. Isn’t humble and sincere Confession and reparation Catholicism 101?. Pope Francis is bringing to fruition the work started by St. John Paul II and Benedict XVI. Pope Francis is right to do what he is doing!
Father: You are incorrect. Canada ceased being a colony in 1867, and the last residential school closed in 1996.
Your comments seem to skim over or minimize the horrendous sexual and physical abuse these children experienced at the hands of Catholic religious.
What evidence do you have of abuse?
It has become common in the media the last 10 years or so, to make accusations which need not be borne out in reality with PROOF. It is enough to sully your target with accusations, because that is what people remember and stupidly believe.The accusation itself does all the damage and cannot be undone. Its clear there are NO “mass graves” as where many, many bodies are dumped together in one heap, as they were in WWII Nazi concentration camps..Since these schools existed for roughly 100 years with thousands passing through, why is it astonishing that some would pass away? People die. Even children die. Especially as some arrived sick and/or malnourished. People died then of MANY illnesses which we do not have to fight today. I had a great grandmother who died in her 30’s from Tuberculosis. We do not see that any longer. I can certainly understand the feelings that an injustice was done to these native families and their children. Trying to imply however that they were brought there to be killed, or that abuse was the norm, is a slander than should not stand. Its unfortunate the Pope would give credence to this politically charged fishing expedition by traveling to Canada. In my opinion his being there is a huge mistake, and can only serve to further damage the church.What are these “activists” looking for?? The fact they continue to claim bodies have been found, when they have not, tells you much.They are not seeking truth. They are almost certainly seeking either money or the destruction of the church. Or both. The accusation of babies being fathered priests and then murdered, is slander (if not total fantasy) of the worst sort, and a public retraction should be demanded unless some sort of proof can be provided. The Pope needs new advisors.
Usually find evidence of bodies in a cemetery. Might be bodies of nuns who died while working at the school. Might be bodies of children who died of diseases while attending school. I really doubt there was any wrong-doing causing death at these schools. We cannot judge what went on in these schools by todays standards—we have no clue what challenges presented themselves at these schools—we have no clue what resources were available to combat diseases at these schools. It is disappointing that the media is claiming wrong-doings at these schools without an ounce of evidence.
LJ and Gerald: The proof and evidence is found in the Canadian government’s Truth and Reconciliation Commission’s report. The report and it’s evidence is over 500 pages long. It and other reports can be found here:
https://nctr.ca/records/reports/
It’s also important to note that the Canadian Conference of Catholic Bishops have also acknowledge the profound harm and abuse that took place in the residential school system. The CCCB have lots of info here:
https://www.cccb.ca/indigenous-peoples/
Don’t dismiss the suffering of Indigenous, Inuit and Métis peoples. Many of which are very faithful Catholics/Christians in spite of the abuse they’ve suffered.
Innuendo is NOT proof. I think we saw enough of that type of “investigation” in the multi-year ( and proven fake) Russia probe of Donald Trump. Producing volumes of statements and possibilities and maybes adds up to nothing in the end. The same here. This article says NO graves have been found. Are you refuting that assertion?? Doubtless the idea of trying to force a person to change their culture is VERY unappealing to us in this century. Well, 100 years have passed and now people feel differently than they did then. Europeanizing these Natives was seen at the time as a way to help improve their future AND their souls. Are you trying to say that all religious people who came into contact with these children were predators and abusers?? It seems unlikely in the extreme. I remain exasperated by attempts of activists in this century to judge people of other centuries by later more enlightened standards. In any large group of thousands of people interacting there are going to be some terrible people who do terrible things. That most certainly does NOT mean that the church was encouraging those behaviors, nor that those behaviors were somehow church policy.That is what the media would have you believe and the Pope has played into their hands. How much would the church have really known up close about what was happening day to day at these schools, which even today appear to be in highly isolated locations? No doubt you will find graves. As one Native leader pointed out, there were known to be cemeteries by the schools (one beginning quite normally as a catholic cemetery in the area) and no attempt was made to hide that fact. If indeed crimes were being committed that resulted in death, one imagines a greater attempt would be made to HIDE the bodies, not bury them out in the open which could raise questions. People die, especially back in those days, of stuff that we would today see as easily cured with the correct medicines. They did not have those medicines then. Articles have said, the financial resources were not available to ship the bodies home either. As some have made the point, people of every race and nationality found life precarious at best 100 years ago. People died of all kinds of things. Native Americans had no monopoly on that. All I see in this story is the same old woke ideology which has become the media’s favorite pitch line, which tries to make everything white or western bad, and everything about indigenous life or about people of color good. If you will excuse the pun, life has NEVER been that “back and white”. I remain convinced the Pope made an error coming to Canada. It simply is throwing oil on the fire. What happened 100 years ago can never be fully known.
LJ – These horrible things didn’t just happen 100+ years ago. They happened within living memory. The last residential school closed in 1996. At this week’s Papal events many survivors were there. The Truth and Reconciliation Commission interviewed over 6000 survivors. I really think you need to educate yourself on what actually happened. You’re doing what many Catholics did before the Legionnaires of Christ, McCarrick, Boston, Mt. Cashel scandals. Your being an apologist for horrendous behaviour. You aren’t listening to what victims are telling you. Being a faithful Catholic doesn’t meant defending priests/religious/hierarchy when they are wrong. Finally, many Indigenous people continue to be faithful Catholics/Christians despite the abuse they suffered. Don’t disrespect your brothers and sisters in Christ by discounting their stories out of misplaced loyalty to the institution.
Leave it to a Catholic traditionalist to invoke Donald Trump in a 6,000 word rant as the first defense for Catholic wrong-doing. lol, who do you even pray to at Church anymore?
To Joe and Andrew,
I do not an apologist for bad behavior. Nor do I “defend” Catholic wrong-doing. What I object to is what has become all too common all across society in recent years: Accusations being accepted as proof and conviction. I am well familiar with sensational media cases of sexual accusation later proved quite FALSE. Here in the US the Tawana Brawley Case comes to mind, as well as the Duke Rape case. In both instances, both media and other institutions, such as job sites where the accused worked, were all too rapid to accept ACCUSATION as fact, when in fact, there WERE no facts. Because in those cases which like this were racially inflamed, the accusations were nearly impossible to fight fairly, in part because people feared being labeled ( and libeled) with the well worn accusation of “racism”. Fearful of being so accused, people who should have known better, who should have fought for facts, instead decided to bow to the mere accusation and accept it as FACT. They fired those accused, demeaned them in the press. THAT is what I find truly disgusting. It is not unlike what has been happening on our campuses when male students accused by a female student of a sexual offense (often later shown to be consensual) are stripped of due process. Now, the simple accusation is enough to ruin live, educations, careers. Unless there are verified RECORDS, medical records, police reports, govt reports MADE AT THE TIME OF THE INCIDENT, you cannot prove most or any cause of death in the case of the Native schools.Try doing that by going back 100 years. Or 25 years for that matter. People are angry because these children were robbed of their culture. A fair assertion. Murder, etc however is going a mile too far unless proof can be obtained. To paint all nuns, priests, missionaries with the brush of abuse as if ALL could be held accountable for such actions, is both wrong and disgusting. Surely if this was widespread, it would have been known at the time. Speak to any faithful priest who has had a parent eyeball him with mistrust. I do not deny at all that given thousands of children over 100 years, abuse might have happened. That such would be widespread I think unlikely in the extreme. . Such people should be punished if still alive. What I still want to see is PROOF. Not a media lynching.
Really unfair comment. You betray your liberal biases. Donald Trump, a victim of continuous and concerted slander by the democrats, and their puppets the MSM. He was the most pro-life president the US has ever had. And he did not hide it. Any so called Catholics who voted against him should be ashamed
Andrew, I don’t think anyone’s dismissing First Nations people or the sad history of US Indians. Truthfully, I think things have been harder for tribal folks in the States. But we have to go by facts, not media hysteria.
That’s why I posted links to the 500+ page government Truth and Reconciliation Commission report. Or you could read what the religious communities themselves have said. You can start with the Oblates of Mary Immaculate…they ran most Catholic residential schools:
https://omilacombe.ca/indian-residential-schools-missionary-oblates-mary-immaculate-q/
Thank you for sharing that Andrew. I just think it might be prudent for forensic investigations to come up with the facts before more commentary is made about secret burials.
As far as a “Cultural genocide” committed, I do think many Europeans were acting from a 19th & earlier 20th century perception-as most people of those previous eras were. We learn from our mistakes. Sharing the Gospel shouldn’t be seen as a mistake though. Breaking up families? No, not a good idea. At least we’ve progressed on that approach.
I’m not an Indian nor descended from any North American tribal people as far as I know but one side of my family has a pretty long history in Canada & I’ve learned there is always more than one side to an historical story.
In view of the assimilation program of the Canada secular authorities of the epoch in question, the residential school system provided shelter, clothing, meals, some education, a secure relatively protected environment, some defense against further undue encroachment, a place of stability according to the talents and motivation of those who cared about it and a level of recreation and society. From information available, other than particular situations of actual abuse, what people seem to find so difficult about the residential system, amounts to the same suffering that happens in any dysfunctional home -and there are multitudes. If these things are not addressed properly according to truth and modesty, there will be a lot of hype and inauthentic spirituality that would only be the fault of the modern era and not the residential system. Whereas, at the earlier time, the State imposition was blunted by the action of the altruistic and the religious; today, the State politicking, untruth and sensationalism could end up being endorsed by the latter. Unfortunately, as it appears, that is precisely what has been going on already too long nearly 70 years.
Meanwhile there are indeed more serious things happening that target the indigenous children and women -and men- and at the same time threaten to overflow into the wider society. Some of it may have institutional underpinning.
mrscracker, I would like to comment on your statement: [ ” As far as a “Cultural genocide” committed, I do think many Europeans were acting from a 19th & earlier 20th century perception-as most people of those previous eras were. We learn from our mistakes. Sharing the Gospel shouldn’t be seen as a mistake though.” ]
What has happened to indigenous populations impacted by the colonial expansion of the British Empire can not be simply accepted as people acting from a 19th & earlier 20th century perception especially with respect to missionary activity and individual christians perspectives towards the native people they encountered in the many and various lived situations.
As a young man I asked myself the question, how could the injustices perpetrated against indigenous Australians have occurred when my forebears where all christian and the colonising nation was a christian nation? I have found it necessary to distinguish between those who in their daily dealings follow the character and priorities of Jesus as outlined and characterised in the Gospels and those who are ‘nominally christian but who’s priorities, choices and motivations may it known that they are acting in a contrary fashion to a live patterned after the character of Jesus who we as christians are called to emulate.
Indeed when looking at historical records it becomes evident that there were many who responded to indigenous people in the pattern and character of Jesus and who while making some mistakes ( in hindsight due to cultural ignorance etc ) who acted to keep families together and had profound respect for them. At the same time there were those who destroyed lives while maintaining an adherence to a faith that expressed itself in little more than fronting up to church every Sunday.
Jesus addressed the folly of having a nominal faith where the heart was absent, the thirst for justice a no go zone, where the notion of a Jesus inspired love distorted by a desire to fashion Jesus after our own image and interpretation especially when it comes to the pursuit of land and wealth.
This dynamic continues to this present day. Some familiarity with the Doctrine of Discovery and Terra Nullius may be of assistance to understanding.
https://www.cccb.ca/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/catholic-response-to-doctrine-of-discovery-and-tn.pdf
Well, Christians are fallen human beings & our efforts even with the best intentions are imperfect & inadequate to the mission at hand.
I really think it’s more about Christians cooperating with a govt. or govt. policy that becomes problematic. When missionaries enable the status quo more energetically than spreading the Gospel.
I had family members who lived in Haiti & they came to have a rather negative view of missionaries. Needed as missionaries are in Haiti there are always a handful who create a bad image.
I don’t think everything about colonization was negative. Britain for all it’s mistakes worked hard to eradicate slavery in Africa & end the burning of widows in India. Not every single cultural tradition is worth preserving.
I always find it odd that we condemn colonization by the West but totally ignore the Ottoman Empire & its kidnappings, cultural erasures, mutilation of young boys, & slave markets in the East. Slavery was only officially outlawed in Saudi Arabia in the 1960’s.We hear much about the Atlantic slave trade but ignore kidnapped Europeans sold in North Africa & Constantinople. Or the Africans marched East to be sold in the Persian Gulf.
Oppressing, enslaving, & denying others their cultures has always been part of our fallen human condition. In Canada, Australia, & every other region of the globe. And in some places like Haiti cultural forms of slavery still continue today.
Trying to judge people of another times by today’s standards is an exercise in futility. Its comparing apples to shoes.It cannot be done, and more to the point it is unfair to do so. People are products of their times,of the social and political and economic structures which existed THEN. Period. Their religious beliefs, except for those with a missionary mentality, dont always come into play. Many people who claim “Christianity” are in fact simply cultural Christians. They might observe some niceties like getting ashes on Ash Wednesday but otherwise the religion’s teachings have not really penetrated their hearts so as to put them into action. The vast majority of Christians today would not qualify as Saints. I would also point out that in many cases indigenous people would not have qualified as saints either. Historic accounts in the US are rife with horrifying stories of white settlers, including women and children, killed in war party raids, kidnapped and kept as slaves, etc. Warring for territory was a fact of life among various tribes and many were tortured or killed. The bucolic peaceful native is a lovely stereotype. Unfortunately it is not an accurate one. Most stories have two sides to them.
While off topic, a nice sailboat! From one sailor to another, would you share some insight on the pictured vessel?
God bless you.
I would recommend Douglas Farrow’s article in CWR, The History of Canada’s Residential Schools. Also Fr. Raymond de Souza’s coverage.
From Fr. de Souza – “That there were those who generously served in difficult circumstances is not historically in dispute, but Catholic leadership in Canada has been largely silent on this matter, sacrificing the memory of their forbears in the face of opposition today”. (Amid a reckoning, Pope Francis shares prospect of hope – National Post, July 26/22). This, too, is an injustice.
LJ, I don’t think we ought to be looking at the problems of any era merely through the lens of that era’s mentality or spirit of the age. Rather we should be taking the issues – both the highly problematic and not so problematic – through the lens of God’s value system as exemplified through the Gospels themselves. We should be asking ourselves how would Jesus view the situations of those times, and in order to arrive at an answer that reflects an authenticity of Jesus’ own heart, we need to ask Him by interiorly searching, guided by the wisdom of the Saints, for that answer which most closely reflects His position of love, care, concern, and solidarity for and with those who suffered unjustly for whatever reason in any era.
It is only by virtue of the wisdom of the Holy Spirit that we can truly know how to interpret what we read and hear regardless of the time or place. Of course in every era you will have a particular “fashioning spirit”, that particular spirit of human creativity that is unique to that era as dictated by the ways in which the cultural, social, and political dynamics operated in the various mileus of interactive interplay in human society during that time but we should not be analyzing the moral accountability merely through the lens of those trends for if we are truly Christian and/or Catholic in our faith, we need to anchor ourselves not in alignment with the spirit of the age, trends of an era, or the ways of the world but rather anchor ourselves in the truth as told by the Spirit of God, be it concerning the 21st century or the 19th century or any other century or epoch for that matter.
It is remarkably simple but it needs time and conscientious interior cultivation to arrive at this place of anchoring our hearts where God would want them positioned relative to looking at and discerning the moral predicaments of any issue in any time.
And that is also why we are so blessed to have the tradition of our Catholic faith to help us. That said, I will give utmost credence to mrscracker for highlighting the truth about the difference between those who really live out their faith with genuine conviction and love, and those who are basically Christian or Catholic in name only and whilst the latter may be flawless at Sunday Mass attendance, they do not (like their counterparts called the Pharisees of Jesus’ own day) care for much insofar as using the interior wisdom of God for the compassionate ends it is meant to be used for.
This is not to say LJ that everything you have said is untrue for much of what you have said is true – that it is an undeniable hard-core fact that some anti-Church interests within certain channels of the contemporary secular media have been virulent in trying to use this issue of these radar findings to scapegoat the Catholic Church which frankly is hardly surprising and added to this, the devil and his cohorts have been working round the clock to try and swing the sentiment and spiritual favour of indigenous communities towards his side of the divide further plunging them into division and spiritual peril. This is a tragic thing and we need to be understanding that there is a fierce spiritual battle being waged here and that such battles produce certain symptoms in the temporal that are reflective or indicative of the behind-the-scenes spiritual interests at work. But we have to take heart and not be rendered powerless by all of this in our thinking and outlook. And therefore we need to take up that sword of the Spirit alluded to by St Paul in Ephesians Ch.6 and use it in our daily fight for the right to life, against the culture of death both in our personal lives and in our publically interactive lives.
Moderation Team: Apologies but I am resubmitting my comment as I made a citation error in the previous version. I meant to cite John Hallam and not mrscracker. Correction has been made in this version. Please delete the first submission and replace it with this version:
LJ, I don’t think we ought to be looking at the problems of any era merely through the lens of that era’s mentality or spirit of the age. Rather we should be taking the issues – both the highly problematic and not so problematic – through the lens of God’s value system as exemplified through the Gospels themselves. We should be asking ourselves how would Jesus view the situations of those times, and in order to arrive at an answer that reflects an authenticity of Jesus’ own heart, we need to ask Him by interiorly searching, guided by the wisdom of the Saints, for that answer which most closely reflects His position of love, care, concern, and solidarity for and with those who suffered unjustly for whatever reason in any era.
It is only by virtue of the wisdom of the Holy Spirit that we can truly know how to interpret what we read and hear regardless of the time or place. Of course in every era you will have a particular “fashioning spirit”, that particular spirit of human creativity that is unique to that era as dictated by the ways in which the cultural, social, and political dynamics operated in the various mileus of interactive interplay in human society during that time but we should not be analyzing the moral accountability merely through the lens of those trends for if we are truly Christian and/or Catholic in our faith, we need to anchor ourselves not in alignment with the spirit of the age, trends of an era, or the ways of the world but rather anchor ourselves in the truth as told by the Spirit of God, be it concerning the 21st century or the 19th century or any other century or epoch for that matter.
It is remarkably simple but it needs time and conscientious interior cultivation to arrive at this place of anchoring our hearts where God would want them positioned relative to looking at and discerning the moral predicaments of any issue in any time.
And that is also why we are so blessed to have the tradition of our Catholic faith to help us. That said, I will give utmost credence to Christopher Hallam for highlighting the truth about the difference between those who really live out their faith with genuine conviction and love, and those who are basically Christian or Catholic in name only and whilst the latter may be flawless at Sunday Mass attendance, they do not (like their counterparts called the Pharisees of Jesus’ own day) care for much insofar as using the interior wisdom of God for the compassionate ends it is meant to be used for.
This is not to say LJ that everything you have said is untrue for much of what you have said is true – that it is an undeniable hard-core fact that some anti-Church interests within certain channels of the contemporary secular media have been virulent in trying to use this issue of these radar findings to scapegoat the Catholic Church which frankly is hardly surprising and added to this, the devil and his cohorts have been working round the clock to try and swing the sentiment and spiritual favour of indigenous communities towards his side of the divide further plunging them into division and spiritual peril. This is a tragic thing and we need to be understanding that there is a fierce spiritual battle being waged here and that such battles produce certain symptoms in the temporal that are reflective or indicative of the behind-the-scenes spiritual interests at work. But we have to take heart and not be rendered powerless by all of this in our thinking and outlook. And therefore we need to take up that sword of the Spirit alluded to by St Paul in Ephesians Ch.6 and use it in our daily fight for the right to life, against the culture of death both in our personal lives and in our publically interactive lives.
The entire point of concern here is firstly were there actually crimes in the magnitude suggested through the Media? If so, then use our civilized court system of the 21st Century to prove it beyound a reasonable doubt! In the interim STOP these billions and billions of our Canadian dollars from being sent to these complaining tribes. Put the money in a trust fund but do not pay another dime out until the process is completed. I can’t believe the majority of who I believe to be intelligent Canadian citizens are buying what is simply “snake oil” in believing it is true! I and many that I have talked to have had enough of this “poor me and send me money first” that our Federal Government is authorizing.