
Vatican City, Jun 21, 2018 / 04:29 pm (CNA).- In a June 21 conversation with journalists on the way back from a trip to Geneva, Pope Francis touched on an array of topics, including ecumenism, intercommunion, peace and just war, and refugees.
Please read below for CNA’s full transcript of the Pope’s inflight press conference:
Greg Burke:
Thank you, Your Holiness… we wait a second, here we go… perfect! Thank you in the meantime. To journey, to pray, to work together… we have walked, we have prayed also, at various times, and now we touch on work a little, even to eat after, so that it is seen that to journey together brings fruit.
Today the welcoming- we have seen, after many speeches that it is the mutual respect and it is something more, it is also friendship. However, there is still so much work to do and so many challenges and this interests us normally, the challenges… so, to you journalists… but, if you want to say something first [Holy Father]?
Pope Francis:
Thank you for your work, the day was a little heavy, at least for me… but I am content, I am content [ed. note: or ‘happy’] because the various things that we have done — that is, the prayers to begin, then the speech during lunch it was the most beautiful, then the academic meeting, and then the Mass, they are things that have made me happy… The tiring but beautiful things! Thank you so much! Now I am available to you.
Greg Burke:
Good. We begin with the Swiss. (Arnaud Bedat of L’Illustre magazine)
Bedat:
Holy Father, you have been in Geneva, but also in Switzerland. What are the images and what are the strong, important moments that had an impact on you during this day?
Pope Francis:
Repeat for me.
Bedat:
(repeated)
Pope Francis:
I believe that it is a common word: encounter. It was a day of varied encounters. The right word of the day is ‘encounter,’ and when a person encounters another and feels appreciation for the meeting, this always touches the heart, no? They were positive meetings, good even, beginning with the dialogue with the president at the beginning; it was not a speech of courtesy, as usual… [it was] a deep speech on the profound world debates and [spoken by him] with an intelligence… that I remain astonished, beginning from that.
Then the meetings that you all saw, and that which you did not see is the meeting at lunch, that was very profound [or deep] in the way it touched on many debates, mabe the debate we spent the most time on is “the youth.” Because even all of the churches are concerned, in the good sense, for the youth and the pre-synod that occurred in Rome from March 19 and then attracted enough attention, because there were youth of all [different] beliefs, even agnostics and of all the countries. Think, 315 youth there and 15,000 connected [ed note: via Facebook] that they entered and exited and this perhaps awakened a special interest.
But the word that came to me maybe the whole trip is that it was a voyage of ‘encounter.’ Maybe… I don’t know… an experience of encounter… no rudeness, nothing entirely formal. A human encounter. And this… between Protestants, Catholics and all [people] it says a lot, eh!
Greg Burke:
Thanks, Holiness. Now the German group. Roland Juchem of the German Catholic CIC Agency is here.
Roland Juchem:
Thanks, Holy Father. You speak often of concrete steps toward ecumenism. Today, for example, you again referred to that, saying “Let’s see what is possible to do concretely rather than getting discouraged for what isn’t.”
The German bishops recently have decided to take a step and so we ask ourselves why Archbishop Ladaria wrote a letter that seems like an “emergency brake.” After the meeting May 3, it was affirmed that the German bishops would have had to find a possibly unanimous solution. What will be the next steps? Will an intervention from the Vatican be necessary to clarify or will the German bishops have to find an agreement?
Pope Francis:
Well. This is not a novelty because in the Code of Canon Law, what the German bishops were talking about is foreseen: communion in special cases. And, they were looking at the problem of mixed marriages, no? If it is possible or it isn’t possible. And the Code says that the bishop of the particular Church – this word is important, “particular,” if it is of a diocese – must read that. It’s in his hands. This is in the Code. The German bishops, because they had seen that it wasn’t clear… also some priests did things who weren’t in agreement with the bishop, have wished to study this theme and have made this study that I don’t want to exaggerate, but it was a study of more than a year, and more… it’s more than a year… well done… and the study was restrictive.
What the bishops wanted is to say clearly what is in the Code. And, I read it and said: this is a restrictive document, no? It wasn’t open to everyone. It’s a well thought-out thing, with ecclesial spirit. And they wished to do it for the local Church, not the particular. The thing slid along up until there for the German [bishops’] conference. And there, there is a problem, because the Code does not foresee that. It foresees the bishop of the diocese, but not the conference, because a thing approved by an episcopal conference immediately becomes universal.
And this was the difficulty of the discussion: not so much the content, but this. And they sent the document. Then, there were two or three meetings of dialogue or of clarification and Archbishop Ladaria sent that letter, but with my permission. He didn’t do it alone! I told him: ‘Yes, it’s better to make a step ahead and say that the document isn’t yet mature and that the thing needed to be studied more.’ Then, there was another meeting and at the end they will study the thing.
I think that this will be an orientative document so that each of the diocesan bishops can manage what canon law already permits.
It wasn’t a brake … it is reading the thing so that it goes along the right path. When I made a visit to the Lutheran Church of Rome, a question of the kind was posed, and I replied according to the spirit of the Code of Canon Law. It is the spirit that they are seeking now. Maybe it wasn’t the right information in the right moment, a little bit of confusion, but this is the thing: the particular Church, the Code permits it, the local Church [episcopal conference] cannot because it would be universal.
(journalist inaudible)
But the conference can study and give orientative opinions to help the bishops to manage the particular cases. Thanks.
Greg Burke:
Now from the Spanish group there is Eva Fernandez of COPE agency and Spanish radio
Pope Francis:
They are good, these [journalists] of COPE
Eva Fernandez:
Thank you, Holy Father! We have seen that even the secretary general of the Ecumenical Council of Churches spoke of help to refugees. Just recently we have seen the incident of the Aquarius ship, also the separation of families in the United States. Do you think that some leaders instrumentalize/use the tragedy of refugees. Do they use them…?
Pope Francis:
I have spoken a lot on refugees, the criteria are those that I have said: to welcome, to accompany, to place, to integrate. This is the criteria for all refugees. Then I have said that every country should do this with the virtue of the rule of prudence, because a country should welcome as many refugees as it can and as many as it can integrate, educate, assimilate, give work to. This I would say is the straightforward/easy, serene plan for refugees. Here we are living [with] a wave of refugees that flee from wars and from hunger. The war and hunger of many countries in Africa, wars and persecution in the Middle East. Italy and Greece were very generous in welcoming [refugees], and for the Middle East, Turkey [was also], in respect to Syria, it has received many… Lebanon many… Lebanon has as many Syrians as Lebanese… and then Jordan… other countries, also Spain has received [them? some?].
There is a problem of trafficking migrants, and also there is the problem when in some cases they return, because they should return if this — I do not know/understand well the terms in agreement — if they are in the Libyan water, they should return… and there, I have seen the photographs of the detention centers controlled by the traffickers. Traffickers immediately separate the women from the men… women and babies go… God knows where! This is what the traffickers do! There is even a case that I know of where the traffickers were close to a ship that had accepted barges and… [they were saying] “give us the women and the babies and take the males.”
These traffickers and the detention centers of the traffickers eh, that have returned, they are terrible… terrible! In the detention camps of the Second World War they saw these things! And also the mutilizations in the torture of [forced?] labor and then they threw them to be in the comunes of the men. For this the leaders are concerned that they [the people] do not return and fall into the hands of these people [the traffickers]. It is a world-wide concern! I know that the leaders speak on this and they want to find an agreement, even to modify the Dublin agreement and all of this.
In Spain you have had the case of this ship that is docked in Valencia, but all of this is a mess… the problem of the wars is difficult to resolve. The problem of the persecution also of Christians in the Middle East, also in Nigeria… but the problem of hunger they can resolve, and many European leaders are thinking of an emergency plan to invest in these countries, to invest intelligently, to give work and education in these two things in the countries from which those people come… because — [I’ll say] one thing, not to offend, but it is the truth — in the collective subconscious, is a bad motto: Africa is exploited. And Africa is to be preyed on… this is in the subconscious… ‘eh, they are Africans.’ Always ‘land of slaves.’
And this should change with this plan of investment, and to increase education, because the African people have many cultural riches, many, and they have a great intelligence. The children are very intelligent and they, with a good education, can go beyond… this will be the road halfway to the goal, but in the moment leaders should make an agreement between themselves to go forward with these emergency fixes… this here in Europe! We go in America: in America there is a great migration problem.
(journalist inaudible)
In Latin America too there is an internal migration problem… in my homeland there is a migration problem from North to South and even these people leave the countryside because there is no work and the go to the big cities and where there are these megacities [or huge cities], the slums and all these things, but it is also an external migration to other countries that have work… and speaking concretely of the United States, I back that which the bishops of the country say. I side with them. Thank you.
Greg Burke:
Thanks, Holiness. Now is the English group: Deborah Castellano Lubov of the Zenit Agency.
Deborah Castellano Lubov (Zenit):
Thanks, Holiness! Holiness, in your address today to the ecumenical encounter you made reference to the enormous strength of the Gospel. We know some of the Churches, now the World Council of Churches, the so-called “pacifist Churches” who believe that a Christian cannot use violence. We remember that two years ago in the Vatican there was as conference organized. Do you think that it would be the case for the Catholic Church to unite to these so-called “Churches of peace” and set aside the doctrine of just war? Thanks.
Pope Francis:
A clarification, why do you say that there are “pacifist Churches?”
Deborah Castellano Lubov:
They are considered as pacifist because they have this way of reasoning that if a person (intuits) a violence, at that point they can no longer be considered Christians.
Pope Francis:
Thanks. I understand. Because you put your finger right in the wound, eh? I think that… today at lunch a pastor said that maybe the first human right is the right to hope and I liked that. And this has to do a bit with this and we spoke about the crisis of human rights today. I think that I have to begin from this to arrive to your question. The crisis of human rights is clearly seen. They speak a bit about human rights but so many groups or some countries take a distance, and “yes, human rights,” but there isn’t the strength, the enthusiasm, the conviction. I don’t say 70 years ago but 20 years ago. And this is grave because we have to see the causes, but what are the causes for which we have arrived to this that today human rights are relative. Also the right to peace is relative. It is a crisis of human rights. This I think that we must think it through to the end, or with certainty.
Then, Churches of peace. I think that all the Churches that have this spirit of peace must reunite and work together as we said in the speeches today, myself and the other people that spoke. And at lunch, unity for peace was spoken of. Peace is an exigency because there is risk of a war that we … some have said this: this third world war, if it is done, we know with which arms it will be done… but if there were a fourth, it would be done with sticks because humanity will be destroyed. The commitment for peace is serious, but when you think of the money that is spent on weapons… for this, the religions of peace… is the mandate of God. Peace, fraternity, human unity. All of the conflicts, don’t resolve them like Cain, resolve them with negotiations, with dialogue, with mediations… for example, we’re in a crisis of mediations. The mediation as a juridical figure (very rich) today is in pure crisis. Hope is in crisis, crisis of human rights, crisis of mediations, crisis of peace.
But then if you say that there are religions of peace, I ask myself, where are the religions of war? It’s tough to understand this. It’s tough. But, some groups, I would say in almost all of the small religious groups, I will say a bit simply fundamentalists, seek wars… Also we Catholics have some. They always seek destruction, no? And this is very important to have our eyes on it. I don’t know if I replied. Thanks.
They say that the population is asking for lunch, eh, dinner, that there is just enough time to arrive with a full stomach. It’s just to tell you… a word that I want to say clearly that today was an ecumenical day, really ecumenical! And at lunch we said a beautiful word, a beautiful thing, that I leave with you so that you think on it and reflect, you make a nice consideration of this. In the ecumenical movement we have to take from the dictionary a word: “proselytism.” Clear? You cannot have ecumenism with proselytism. You have to choose. Either you have an ecumenical spirit or you are a proselytizer.
Thanks! I would continue speaking because I like it… but now let’s make the Substitute [of the Secretariat of State] come because it is the last trip he’ll make with us, because now he’s going to change color, but not for embarrassment! We want to say goodbye to him. It’s a Sardinian cake to celebrate!
Cardinal-elect Angelo Becciu (Sardinian-born Substitute of the Holy See Secretariat of State):
Thanks! It is a double surprise of calling me and thanking me in front of you! And then there’s a Sardinian cake. Well, then, we’ll try it with pleasure! I truly thank the Holy Father for this occasion, but for everything, because he has allowed me this magnificent experience of traveling so much with him. At the beginning, he scared me saying, ‘No, I’ve made few trips.’ Do you remember? And then after one, he added another and then another and we said to ourselves, ‘good thing he said there would be few and they’ve been many.’ A magnificent experience of seeing the Holy Father spread the Word of God courageously. My service has been only this: to help him in this. Alright? Thanks to all of you and to those who have helped us! Thanks.
Pope Francis:
Buon appetito, have a good dinner and thanks so much! And pray for me, please. Thanks.
[…]
I think the article has one glaring omission: the thug regime of Biden and his comrades in arms – the bishops of the USA, the Vatican, and the USCCB – all supporters of this abortion-promoting dictatorship.
I agree. Indeed, I thought it was going to be about the Biden govt. It is an excellent article on a topic not usually discussed at all but further comment is suggested on Biden’s govt, combining appeasement as a foreign policy with bullying (the heart of thuggery) as a domestic policy.
Pope Francis dialogues with dictators but refuses to clarify his confusing remarks to the faithful and refuses to answer the Dubia.
Good article. I can think of another thug regime which wants to codify the legalization of unrestricted abortion. And at this juncture, the Vatican appears to be quite content to accommodate it.
“A Church that will not speak truth to power is not a Church that can credibly proclaim Jesus Christ,…” Bravo Mr Weigel! But this declaration begs the question of why Vatican 2 was mute on the problem of Communism. Although V2 is sixty years in the past, its silence on the evils of Communism, Paul VI’s and Bergoglio’s compliance to the dictators, shows the enduring deep reticence– indeed skepticism–within the highest levels of the Church on its teaching mission to the poor slaves within the totalitarian prisons.
Not so. Pope John Paul was clear about communism, particularly as he had suffered atheistic totalitarian govt under Hitler and then the Soviets. I wish he were still in the Holy See but one cannot live forever. Remember Cardinal Mindszenty, whom John Paul received upon his release from the communists, who had been so excruciatingly tortured. There was no backing down there by the Vicar of Christ at that time.
Great article, George. May God assist us during this dark time within the Church, where it’s leadership seeks first the kingdoms of this world rather than the kingdom of Jesus Christ.
“Thug” is just too nice a term to describe this international phenomenon. This is the spirit of the anti-Christ. The conversation we must have is whether we oppose or embrace them. There is no middle ground. IMO the Pope has CHOSEN to support the anti-Christ and compromise the mission of the church.
The Pontiff Francis orchestrated idolatry in Rome in October 2019, brazenly showing his contempt for the 1st Commandment, after 6 years of showing his contempt for the 6th Commandment.
As reluctantly admitted by Father Imbelli in his recent essay “No Decpaitated Body” (published in summer 2020 in the journal Nova et Vetera, see link below) “there is abroad [i.e., abroad throughout the Church] a…quite intentional apostasy.” He was quoting his own words first written in 2000, and the ellipsis I use are in place of the “limiting qualifiers” which in 2020 he admitted must be deleted. He instead alluded to the 1975 observation by Henri de Lubac, of “the vast phenomenon of the Church’s self-destruction and inner apostasy.”
https://stpaulcenter.com/02-nv-18-3-imbelli/
The leaders of the Church, with few exceptions, cannot taken seriously right now. They do not have the voice of Christ The Good Shepherd.
If the Church in Germany is a 99% wreck, which it is, we ought not to be surprised when public apostate Bishops like Walter Kasper were made Cardinals by Pope John Paul II. In 1974, Kasper outright denied the bodily resurrection of Jesus, and numerous miracle accounts attested by the eye-witnesses of the Church and her evangelists.
The Church has proven itself over the last 50 years to be poorly ungoverned and seemingly ungovernable.
Real reform would be signalled by restoring the primacy of the Congregation for the Faith and dismantling and demoting the Vatican Secretariat of State, made supreme by Pope Paul VI in 1970, (demoting the Congregation for the Faith), and made a super-power by the Pontiff Francis.
But the trajectory of the Church since 1970 has veered away from the Faith, and instead, embraced world politics and power.
The results are the undeniable “vast self-destruction and inner apostasy,” personified by the Pontiff Francis.
A church that demotes the Faith to 2nd place (Paul VI in 1970) and now 3rd tier (Pontiff Francis reorganization) is sending a message that faith doesn’t really matter much to the leadership.
And thus…we are facing a choice between Jesus and the the Church leadership, who are the vanguard of “the vast apostasy.”
Another wonderful article by George Weigel. Gosh, your last 5 or so have been fabulous. I am now a Weigel convert. Time to look on Amazon. But please, you must do this: you have to get a new mugshot. The picture is just way too smug looking, but your writing is not smug at all. The picture just does not match the tone of the writing, which is controlled, professional, no sarcasm or cynicism, no whining, no hyperbole, not a whiff of arrogance, etc., and it is very hard to find Catholic writers who can pull that off today. You are one of the few. Take the plunge: send CWR a nice picture of you smiling, without the pseudo-Rodin posture, giving the false impression that you are looking down at the rest of us ignoramuses from on high.
I had assumed that Mr. Weigel was photographed playing chess, and had just noticed that his opponent had made a careless move.
I like that photograph! George Weigel is a very thoughtful man and that’s what it shows to me. (A lot more than thoughtful, for sure!) The plight of our Church and the world weighs heavily on his shoulders.
What a great article so forthright and true!!! Thank you George Weigel!!
Deacon Peter Kelly
A good account of non productive policy. That granted, if “informed Catholics and senior churchmen” are virtually unanimous, the account begs the question of motive. We may defend such a burlesque as the Vatican claim they secured the right to appoint bishops, when the CCP first selects all the candidates as an only remaining resort to avoid extinction. G Weigel alludes to Vatican financial troubles the CCP renowned for using cash donations as policy incentive. Weigel rightly and righteously responds to either or with, “A Church that will not speak truth to power is not a Church that can credibly proclaim Jesus Christ”. Image is vital appearances must be kept so speaks Madison Avenue. Perhaps the rationale for a makeover Vatican Dicastery for Communications [should I with bias add here the charade claim of doctrinal integrity in Vatican acquiescence to open season communion Malta, Sicily, the Philippines, Deutschland? Okay I won’t]. However it pans out the world will likely give a wink and a nod at a so pretentious Vatican burlesque politik. We simply cannot reconfigure Christ’s radical unmistakable portrait.
“Critical voices among bishops and cardinals may be muted now, out of loyalty (or fear).” This is a very sad (but true) comment on our bishops. And then, “But they are there, and they will be heard when a papal interregnum permits candor.” I see no reason at all to believe this will happen.
The pope decided to allow the communists some voice in appointing Bishops in a misguided attempt to make the situation there better for the church.It did not. If anything it allowed the communists a credibility they did not have before. Having discovered it was false promises ( churches demolished, church goers arrested, etc) the Pope should have pulled the plug on the deal. In the US and elsewhere he seems to operate on the same principle, being fearful that applying truth and discipline will result in insurrection and/or folks voting with their wallets. Well,the church is already teetering and the wallets have been shut for some time.The unwillingness of the Bishops to speak out well before the election was a major disappointment. That many Catholics betrayed their teachings and voted for pro-abortion Biden is just as sad. Lack of firm statements from the hierarchy has much to do with this. Time for the Pope ( and the Bishops) to tell people the plain truth, whether or not they want to hear it. Or resign and allow a pope with more spine to be elected and LEAD .A smaller more faithful church might not be the end of the world. If you want to live the secular life in all ways, and be told that’s fine, there is not much point in being a Catholic or a Christian. Don’t pretend you are one if you are NOT.
I, too, was disappointed that a number of bishops were silent before the election, while simultaneously placing covid restrictions on Mass in direct violation of canon laws and basic rights. It’s like in the past year we’ve been hit with a double-whammy. And so many useful idiots are now emboldened. I definitely feel like my Church is being pushed to the brink.
The interregnum will be predominantly Bergoglio appointees. They like what Francis is doing. That’s why they got the gig. Why would they see the need to address these issues? I suspect most are in tow with Germany, prefer to appease China, follow Francis’ deplorable example on sex abuse, don’t understand how economies function, would rather cower before depots, and see no need to stand for our Catholic faith, to wit, how they deal with Biden. Pipe dreams, Weigel. This Jesuit has done incredible damage to the Church for generations to come.
The fault of all this trouble in the Church goes back to the Second Vatican Council. St. Pope John XXlll had 9 excellent Schemata prepared for the Council. The Council would have been as great as the Council of Trent. Pope John’s Council could have been called The Second Council of Trent. I quote here from the book “Letters from Vatican City” by Xavier Rynne This is when Cardinal Bea led the Council Fathers to dump the Council of Pope John XXlll, words of Cardinal Bea, “There is no need now for patristic or theological arguments. What our times demand is a pastoral approach, demonstrating the love and kindness that flow from our religion… it is not the Councils business to do the work of exegetes; to solve problems of inspiration, authorship or inerrancy.. The Schemata must be radically redone to render it shorter clearer and more pastoral”. This was the beginning of the Modernist takeover of the Church. St. John XXlll after this, “He called his closest Cardinal Collaborators together to think of a way to gracefully end the Council as he saw trouble ahead.” This from an interview I saw on TV about 15 years ago of an aged Cardinal who was one of Pope John’s closest collaborators. God speed to Archbishop Vigano.
Wonderful article Mr. Weigel. You always manage to be insightful, clear, balanced and charitable. I wish I could say the same about some of the comments that follow your articles!
One longs for the days of Pius XII and the excommunication of the miscreant thugs and the proscription of those not Catholic. Whether it eventually brought their souls to truth is uncertain but it is certain that the moral position of the Church was quite clear.